NEw oil= increased engine wear?

[Laminar Lou]

I should mention that I used to change my oil every 3,000 miles too. Then I came to BITOG and have seen the light. It's hard to break old habits, but if you keep an open mind (in life as well as with oil) you can really learn something.

I like to work on my vehicles like most of the people here. Now I use the time I save by not over changing the oil to work on other things and learn about other parts of the engine.

 

[Ugly3]

Ya know, you really can't be doing too much "damage" by changing the oil too often. I had a 1979 Camaro with a 305 in it. The oil was changed every 1,500 miles for years and years. Ran like a clock.

I had a pallet of 10w30 oil that I got for a song (fell off the back of a truck). Oil filters were Sears Spectrum.

 

[drewjp]

That's interesting...

It makes it that much easier to get away from my old 3000 mi. habits

 

[GMorg]

Related thread, good discussion:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1

 

[Laminar Lou]

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Ya know, you really can't be doing too much "damage" by changing the oil too often. I had a 1979 Camaro with a 305 in it. The oil was changed every 1,500 miles for years and years. Ran like a clock.

I had a pallet of 10w30 oil that I got for a song (fell off the back of a truck). Oil filters were Sears Spectrum.

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Honestly, that's a whole different beast then today's more modern engines. I don't think you can apply what worked 28 years ago to today. I think that is the trap that many people fall into. Honestly, on that Camaro you probably weren't too far from the optimum change interval anyway. But to change the oil at 1,500 miles on a BMW that doesn't need it for 20,000 miles would be silly. In my opinion, changing the oil even at 3,000 miles when the OLM states that it can go 10K is silly.

That said, I still don't know if the "extra wear" of changing the oil too often is going to lead to premature failure. In the end you have to do what makes you sleep well at night. If I had my choice between a car that has been changed too often then not enough I would obviously pick the one that has been changed too often.

 

[hominid7]

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But to change the oil at 1,500 miles on a BMW that doesn't need it for 20,000 miles would be silly. In my opinion, changing the oil even at 3,000 miles when the OLM states that it can go 10K is silly.

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In order for me to go 20k miles between oil changes i would have to be heavily medicated.

 

[Laminar Lou]

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But to change the oil at 1,500 miles on a BMW that doesn't need it for 20,000 miles would be silly. In my opinion, changing the oil even at 3,000 miles when the OLM states that it can go 10K is silly.

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In order for me to go 20k miles between oil changes i would have to be heavily medicated.

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You might change your mind if you saw the size of the sump (I think mine was 8qts) and the displacement of the engine (2.5L inline 6). I am kicking myself not doing a UOA on that car before I turned it in (BMW Z4). The computer had me changing the oil about every 14 months and 15K miles, but people were hitting 20K in that same car if there were more freeway miles involved.

I have to admit that I was very skeptical but if BMW is willing to set a policy for their very expensive motors I am going to venture there is some research behind it. As I understand Mercedes Benz is doing similar intervals.

 

[427Z06]

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I paid for the SAE paper on using the radioactive tracer on cam lobes and read it (2003-01-3119).

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Great post, Laminar Lou.

Allow me to add, that one would still want to consider other parts of the engine. I forget whether that was a flat-tappet pushrod cam arrangement, but in any event, will the wear rates correlate with say piston rings, cylinder walls, piston pins, hydrodynamic bearings, timing chains, etc.

 

[Laminar Lou]

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Related thread, good discussion:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=1&vc=1

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I read that thread and I think I might have to disagree with Mola on this one.

To quote Mola:

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MY theory has been that with new oil, the fresh and active detergents starts removing deposits, including metals deposited before the oil change, so the old material is then dispersed into the new oil.

Now as the additives wane from decomposition (detergents and dispersants are reduced in activity/effectivity) through oil aging, the oil has picked up about as much material as it can (loading), oxidizes, and becomes thicker.

So when new oil is introduced, the old crud is whisked up and dispersed into the new oil, which shows higher wear metal content initially, but tapers off as the oil ages.

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Now at a practical level Mola might be right (he is the smartest person I have never met when it comes to oil). However, in the context of the SAE paper I don't think his logic applies. In one of the tests they kept adding fresh oil at a constant rate and it produced wear at a constant rate. If I understand the test correctly this would mean that at some point the deposits had to be removed at some point. Considering that the cam lobes were cleaned with mineral spirits I would think that "detergent action" alone would have removed most if not all of the deposits in the first place.

What I took from the paper was that the scavenging of the antiwear layer from the metal caused a higher level of wear until the new antiwear agents from the fresh oil were able to lay down their protective coating. That is what causes the spike in wear initially, and then a return to a more flat wear trend as time went on.

The test with the old oil on a new surface proved to me that there are chemistries that are activated in the oil that decrease wear but take time to activate. So when they put old oil on a fresh surface the antiwear layer was scavenged and caused a wear "spike" but quickly returned to a low wear rate because its chemistry was already altered to provide the "low wear juice".

We are talking in the lab here though, and I don't want to take Mola out of context. As I said before, he may understand it better at the practical level.

That said, I use his products so I obviously think he knows what he is talking about. He does this for a living, I am just some guy on the Internet that read a paper and thinks he knows everything

 

[Laminar Lou]

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Allow me to add, that one would still want to consider other parts of the engine. I forget whether that was a flat-tappet pushrod cam arrangement, but in any event, will the wear rates correlate with say piston rings, cylinder walls, piston pins, hydrodynamic bearings, timing chains, etc.

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Yep, it was a flat tappet. My guess is that is probably the highest wear producing design that is applicable to an internal combustion engine.

Your question falls outside the scope of the paper obviously, but I understand your point. Even though this is really theory in a lab, it made it easier to pry me away from the habit of the 3K/3Month interval.

Even then, you could say I don't completely trust the manufactures guidelines 100%. Else I wouldn't do UOA on my cars as a "gut check". So far, however, it seems that the OLM is pretty darn accurate (if not a little conservative still).

 

[jonny-b]

Grat postings, LL.
I have also seen that the OLM on my Mercedes(2003model) gives me some 18-19000 miles. I have been following it, with no oil-related proplems(now having some 110000 miles on it).

 

[427Z06]

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So far, however, it seems that the OLM is pretty darn accurate (if not a little conservative still).

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I agree.

 

[Laminar Lou]

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I have also seen that the OLM on my Mercedes(2003model) gives me some 18-19000 miles. I have been following it, with no oil-related proplems(now having some 110000 miles on it).

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Have you done a UOA? Like I said, I have been kicking myself for not doing a UOA on the BMW. Well that and kicking myself for turning it in for a minivan (it's amazing how your priorities change).

 

[MGBV8ROADSTER]

Brief mention of additive activtion in this article

http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet..._on_running.pdf

ZDDP "may" require heat cycles to decompose and become effective.

New detergent addditives "may" also have an effect perhaps scavaging and reducing effect of ZDDP.

Esters "may" help at low temps or oil changes. Perhaps the switch fromn ZDDP in SM oils helps reduce any "initial" wear.

 

[Laminar Lou]

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Esters "may" help at low temps or oil changes. Perhaps the switch fromn ZDDP in SM oils helps reduce any "initial" wear.

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The SAE paper I am referencing is low ZDDP oil - .05%wt phosphorous. I think that is SM levels of ZDDP.

 

[MGBV8ROADSTER]

I had assumed that from date of paper it would be a higher ZDDP SL type oil. Anymore detail on the test oil?

 

[Laminar Lou]

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I had assumed that from date of paper it would be a higher ZDDP SL type oil. Anymore detail on the test oil?

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They used SAE 5W20 low phosphorous oil for the fresh oil.
They used a GF-3 .1%wt phosphorous oil as well.

I just noticed that the used oil was 5W20 .05% phosphorous oil that was drained out of a taxicab after 12,000 miles in service. That's some pretty used oil.

 

[jonny-b]

Hello, LL. Yes I have been doing a UOA. Eveything seemed OK. I should mention that I was using 4 oz of Auto-Rx in the oil. I am going to do another UOA in April to see if anything have changed, since I poured a bottle of Motorsilk in the engine when I changed the oil. I have been using the same oil: RP 5/30 .

 

[jonny-b]

Another interesting thing regarding oilchanges, is what oil can stand the longest OCI. Tomorrow, I am going to do the last oilchange on my six-cylinder 2.8 diesel Nissan Laurel 1990 model. I am going to use Synlube. Really looking forward to see how this oil performs, as I can see that none here on BITOG have been testing it.
The Synlube oil that I am using is allowing for a 150000 mile OCI!!
This is 50 times longer than the OCI most American do. I bought Synlube from Las Vegas.

 

[Laminar Lou]

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Another interesting thing regarding oilchanges, is what oil can stand the longest OCI. Tomorrow, I am going to do the last oilchange on my six-cylinder 2.8 diesel Nissan Laurel 1990 model. I am going to use Synlube. Really looking forward to see how this oil performs, as I can see that none here on BITOG have been testing it.
The Synlube oil that I am using is allowing for a 150000 mile OCI!!
This is 50 times longer than the OCI most American do. I bought Synlube from Las Vegas.

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You said the dreaded 4 letter word (or 7 letter word) SYNLUBE!

I tip my hat to you for giving it a try. No one here seems to use it and dismisses it as bunk, but no one has given it a try.

I will admit I am highly skeptical but I look forward to the UOAs.