New EPA coal regs = $180 billion

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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Trust me, I went to a top engineering school and there was no brainwashing either way when it came to the technical aspects of all these processes.

Of course now youll probably claim that MSDSs are also written by some left-wing conspiracy, right?

The fact that the Rothschilds control the money flow and both sides doesnt mean that there isnt a reality to a lot of this stuff that has some alignment and a lot of conflicts to what you say.


Left wig, right wing makes no difference. They are the same when not in front of a camera.

You have just proved my point on the brainwashing issue.

The Rothschilds, and many others I might add, control FAR more than just the money. They also control the MSM. Back in 2009 when the economic problems in this country started which bank was making money hand over fist? Rothschilds banking.

In the U.S, look at which banks have been making money hand over fist. Then look at the price of EVERYTHING, not just oil and gas. There is FAR more to our gas prices than just supply and demand.

MSDS's are written by those who go went to college. You are only taught what they want you to know. I am not suggesting that ALL MSDS's are lies either and I'm certainly not suggesting a "left wing" conspiracy. I AM, however, suggesting a huge, in your face conspiracy to destroy the U.S. economy that I find it hard to believe so many don't see.

Our economy is being collpased, intentionally and energy is one of the best ways to do it along with collapsing our currency. We are now in dafault on our debt to China. We can't service our debt.

If you think energy prices are high now, buckle up because this is just the beginning. i hope everyone that fell for this eco-hogwash is happy 5 or 10 years from now when those that created this crisis are still driving Hummers and flying around in Gulfstream jets while the "serfs" who fell for it and those, like me, who didn't are walking, riding bicycles or driving an overpriced, taxpayer funded, electric go-kart.
 
Panda? I know you and JHZR2 as well as Shannow mean well but I'm just sayin', you're being led down a path to dictatorship. I knew before JHZR2 said so that he had a college degree and I knew a long time ago Shannow did.

I also have the feeling you have a college degree but as I said in another post. In the collage of environmentalism there is some VERY sinister legislation being passed. Legislation where the goal is taxation and the loss of property rights. There is no better way to get people to give it up than scaring them into thinking they are killing the planet by driving, having electricity and living in a modern day society.

None of us want the environment destroyed and none of us want huge, global companies dumping poisonous substances in the ground or spewing them into the air. That includes right wingers who aren't as "right wing" as the lefties think. That's why the Tea Party exists now.

The UK Department of the Environment is the LAST place I would go to get the truth on ANYTHING regarding the environment. Europe as a whole is worse off than the U.S. is on numerous fronts and the majority of their economic problems have been caused by what I call "the environmental hoax".

Economies around the globe in what once were flourishing industrial countries are all collapsing. Look at what happened to Argentina. The same thing is being done to Europe and the U.S.

I know you guy's mean well but I just don't think you see the big picture. There ARE such things as conspiracies you know and when they can be proven it doesn't qualify as a "theory".

I think what is happening now is probably the biggest "transfer of wealth" and the most evil conspiracy ever perpetrated on this planet and the U.S. will collapse economically along with Europe as a result.

England fell to a similar scam centuries ago and the Rothschilds were behind that as well. That's how the Rothschilds gained their wealth an power over England and they still have it. Cutting off the energy to select countries and collapsing their fiat currencies due to overwhelming debt is how it is done.

I hope everyone enjoys having China as the next world superpower because that is where we are headed. We still have time though. Get your bicycles cheap while you still can and plenty of cold weather gear if you live up north. Don't forget the candles, either.
 
I will add one more comment and then I'll get off my soap box.

I just loaded a tanker full of propane and the guy that works at that refinery told me that that one refinery pays around $400 to $500,000 dollars a year "for emissions".

Tell me, anyone. How does that save the environment and who is paying for that TAX? How does forcing a huge portion of our manufacturing overseas to China, India and down south to Mexico as well as many other countries who don't have environmental rules help the planet when the global wind currents such as the Tradewinds and the Westerlies just carry the pollution around the globe?
 
Trvlr,

The thing is that what Panda had up before is pretty true. Much of the population would gladly live next to a coal plant to save 11% on their electric. Does that make it the best thing?

Well, the population also gladly gorges themselves becoming every more obese. Smokes filler-laced cigarettes without care, drives drunk, dump waste oil on the ground or into the freshwater supply, becomes bogged down with excess debt and takes on a lot of other self-destructive behaviors. Does that make it right? Does it mean that an overarching body should control excessively? My answer to both is no.

But it must be realized that just because some bad things are occurring by some "powers that be", it doesnt mean that we should take a dump in our bathwater just to prove that we are mad. That's kind of like the little kid who wets himself when he doesnt get the toy he wanted. It isnt carte blanche to ignore the realities of the physics of the situation, just to swing polarity the opposite way.

Some (many?) of the regulations are excessive, dont get me wrong, but again, what would happen if some level of regulation didnt exist? Take the propane filling for example. You could bound it naturally by safety (LEL), which most would not understand, bound it by cost (acceptable waste), which would likely be the optimum, or bound it by regulation which can be loose or tight. Bounding by waste is dangerous, because if the value of the component is low, this may give a green flag to release more up to the safety threshold - it is cheaper to waste than to institute a safety system.

There are plenty of third world chemical plant incidents with lots of loss of life (and plenty here too) to indicate that there is a lot to the overall situation and laxed regulation of safety and release (not all of it is purely treehugger operations) can cause dire results. Superfund sites arent there just because some treehugger decided they wanted to kill industry. A lot of these places are REALLY bad. That's not brainwashing. Do you live on top of a superfund site? Would you drink water from a well that is at one of these sites? Need a gut check before putting down SOME of this stuff too hard.

On a smaller scale the justification is tougher, however I suppose in a cumulative manner, it is a concern.
 
Trvlr500,

Every nation has some sort of environmental regulation. The wealthier they are, the tighter it is and the higher concentration of their population, the tighter.

Yes, that's including China. They are starting to feel the pinch of water pollution, air pollution, mud slides from deforestation, health problem from decades of burning coal for cooking and home heating. My parents were burning coal when they were there and their generations back there were burning coal at home until well into the early 1990s because of the lack of propane, natural gas, and large enough electricity infrastructure. I can tell you personally, how it smell and how it tarred the chimney, and how acidic the ash is.

China is on its way to have similar emission standard for automobile as the Europe, because they are now wealthy enough (lives become more valuable and population recognizes what's good for them) to adopt them and the cost of ignoring the pollution is starting to creep up. They are also scraping the old dirty coal power plant for newer and cleaner coal power plant, hydro (whether they do it right is debatable), and nuclear. If a dictatorship that put money where they could have save by ignoring the health of the little people, that means they sense the danger and problem with pollution, and it is good enough for me to think the US should at least match that level of safety and pollution control for our people as well.
 
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Panda? I know you and JHZR2 as well as Shannow mean well but I'm just sayin', you're being led down a path to dictatorship. I knew before JHZR2 said so that he had a college degree and I knew a long time ago Shannow did.

I also have the feeling you have a college degree but as I said in another post. In the collage of environmentalism there is some VERY sinister legislation being passed. Legislation where the goal is taxation and the loss of property rights. There is no better way to get people to give it up than scaring them into thinking they are killing the planet by driving, having electricity and living in a modern day society.

None of us want the environment destroyed and none of us want huge, global companies dumping poisonous substances in the ground or spewing them into the air. That includes right wingers who aren't as "right wing" as the lefties think. That's why the Tea Party exists now.

The UK Department of the Environment is the LAST place I would go to get the truth on ANYTHING regarding the environment. Europe as a whole is worse off than the U.S. is on numerous fronts and the majority of their economic problems have been caused by what I call "the environmental hoax".

Economies around the globe in what once were flourishing industrial countries are all collapsing. Look at what happened to Argentina. The same thing is being done to Europe and the U.S.

I know you guy's mean well but I just don't think you see the big picture. There ARE such things as conspiracies you know and when they can be proven it doesn't qualify as a "theory".

I think what is happening now is probably the biggest "transfer of wealth" and the most evil conspiracy ever perpetrated on this planet and the U.S. will collapse economically along with Europe as a result.

England fell to a similar scam centuries ago and the Rothschilds were behind that as well. That's how the Rothschilds gained their wealth an power over England and they still have it. Cutting off the energy to select countries and collapsing their fiat currencies due to overwhelming debt is how it is done.

I hope everyone enjoys having China as the next world superpower because that is where we are headed. We still have time though. Get your bicycles cheap while you still can and plenty of cold weather gear if you live up north. Don't forget the candles, either. VERY well said. John--Las Vegas
 
I don't have any problem whatsoever with legislation passed that stops the outright poisoning of our environment. I DO have a problem when someone tries to tell me that we need to tax CO2 because it is somehow causing warming of the planet.

That is a bold faced lie and the reason C02 was chosen as the "villain" is because it is part of life on this planet. It is necessary for every activity that goes on whether it be economic activity or breathing and growing crops.

If they can tax C02 then they have the perfect recipe for a dictatorship, globally and there won't be any U.S. to come and save anyone. "The power to tax is the power to destroy".

There is only one group of people powerful enough with enough control over pretty much every country and their governments on this planet that could pull off such a scam and their "lobbyists" control BOTH parties in this country as well in Europe and many others.

They "invented" the Federal Reserve Note, they control it and it's value because as Mayer Rothschild said way back in the 1500's, "I care not who the people elect as long as I control the money".

I paraphrased that quote but anyone can look it up. "Those who own the gold make the rules" is so true and it always will be.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/13/e-p-a-delays-rule-on-power-plant-emissions/

EPA delays new regulations for coal plants for 2 months under a heavy backlash.


Good. Coal is it for now whether anyone wants to believe it or not. Unless we want to start building the nuke plants we should have started building 40 years ago. There is also natural gas. The EPA needs to be chopped off at the knees. They are doing what they were never intended to be doing.
 
Problem is that the EPA evolved like Unions did, due to a clear need that Industry didn't give a rat's behind about the environment, and were prepared to trash it..

Case in point, the shale industry in my district, who were happy to release unwanted cuts straight into creeks and rivers, a steel and copper industry that acid rained (yep it exists) the local forest around the town into a wasteland. Local coal town gas smack bang in the middle of town, and dropping carcinogenic sludge into the soil.

Thus the various EPAs were formed...

Our town is now surrounded by trees, coal fired fireplaces have been phased out (except for my neighbour a few doors down...should've seen the town 20 years ago on a cold misty night, you could almost cut the air with a knife.)

As to the EPA now, I personally think that they are over the top, as an example, with one department demanding a particular activity, and another standing in the way...won't detail the activity, but will answer a PM.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Problem is that the EPA evolved like Unions did, due to a clear need that Industry didn't give a rat's behind about the environment, and were prepared to trash it..

Case in point, the shale industry in my district, who were happy to release unwanted cuts straight into creeks and rivers, a steel and copper industry that acid rained (yep it exists) the local forest around the town into a wasteland. Local coal town gas smack bang in the middle of town, and dropping carcinogenic sludge into the soil.

Thus the various EPAs were formed...

Our town is now surrounded by trees, coal fired fireplaces have been phased out (except for my neighbour a few doors down...should've seen the town 20 years ago on a cold misty night, you could almost cut the air with a knife.)

As to the EPA now, I personally think that they are over the top, as an example, with one department demanding a particular activity, and another standing in the way...won't detail the activity, but will answer a PM.


You have just made my point, Shannow. Protecting the environment is one thing but when they start using "the environment" for "other reasons" it becomes a BIG problem.
 
A specific example of how the EPA impacts "normal" people:
Quote:
Although the RRP Rule went into effect April 22, 2010, the EPA is now flexing it's enforcement muscle. The price for non-compliance and not respecting the EPA's Authority? Try fines up to $37,500.00 per day per violation. One Rockland, Maine contractor Colin Wentworth is now facing $150,000 in violations from the EPA.

The RRP Rule requires that contractors performing renovation, repair and painting projects involving more than 6 square feet of painted surfaces in a room for interior projects or more than 20 square feet of painted surfaces for exterior projects or window replacement or demolition in target housing and child-occupied facilities built before 1978 to follow very specific procedures. Now a project over 6 square feet may be treated like a haz mat situation. Thanks EPA!

http://homerepair.about.com/b/2011/06/11/lead-paint-and-epa-authoritaahhhh.htm

It's just a matter of time before they regulate home owners painting their own homes.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
It's just a matter of time before they regulate home owners painting their own homes.

...and doing their own oil changes and other DIY car maintenance.
 
I had a friend who lived on the coast out in Virginia years ago. A "noreaster" came up through the bay and flooded the area.

One of their neighbors had an oil change drain pan in his garage with used oil in it. When the fire department showed up to help with the mess they found that oil pan in the garage.

I forget how many thousands of dollars they ended up trying to fine him for. Whether they ever got the money or not I don't know but to use a natural disaster as an excuse to bring in revenue is over the top.
 
What continues to fuel the fight is the fact there really hasn't been a debate. It seems anyone who disagrees with the theory of man made global warming is attacked/character assassinated, or does not have the financial might of the theories proponents (much of it our tax dollars). This will affect millions, yet so few have any voice in the discussion or debate.

One such notable critic,Dr. Claude Allegre, has reversed his belief in the importance of man made global warming.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=2f4cc62e-5b0d-4b59-8705-fc28f14da388

See bottom of page for his credentials.

Has anyone scanned or read the Coppenhagen Accord on Global Warming Climate Change? I'm in the process, and have yet to find reference of an elected official on any of the oversight boards.
 
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Look at Australia's news yesterday to see how there's an agenda, and science isn't part of it.

I'm all for efficiency, and prudence in the face of possible science, and also of taking action.

But yesterday (in Oz) was pure agenda
 
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
I find it hard to believe anyone would take ANYTHING the Center for American Progress says as true. That goes for Harvard as well especially when it concerns the environment.

The Center for American Progress is NOT on our side. Their goal is just the opposite of what their title claims. Harvard isn't exactly teaching anything that is in our best interest either. It's a great place to get an education but it's what is DONE with the education that is frightening.


Burn those books! Nothing good ever comes out of knowledge.
 
EPA rules raise risk of blackouts

Quote:
...DTE will have to shutter 10 coal-burning units, reducing capacity by 20 percent to meet new Environmental Protection Agency regulations on coal plants.

Updating the plants to comply with the new EPA standards in the three-year period allowed would be massively expensive. So DTE will take them off line.

That will reduce reserves to 6 percent and leave the system vulnerable to blackouts on scorching hot days like the ones we've had this month.
 
Originally Posted By: LTVibe

EPA rules raise risk of blackouts

Quote:
...DTE will have to shutter 10 coal-burning units, reducing capacity by 20 percent to meet new Environmental Protection Agency regulations on coal plants.

Updating the plants to comply with the new EPA standards in the three-year period allowed would be massively expensive. So DTE will take them off line.

That will reduce reserves to 6 percent and leave the system vulnerable to blackouts on scorching hot days like the ones we've had this month.



Mr Finley who wrote this "Article" has his own agenda.
A track record of just parroting other Self selling loudmouths.

But then thats ok as this thread has derailed anyhow...
 
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