New Amsoil European Viscosities

[Pablo]

I was simply making the point that we don't know what is better or not (a general comment), they aren't using approvals, not really a big deal but that doesn't always mean better was all.

OK

Could also mean they changed suppliers of one component or more, because NLA, or almost exact or BETTER component is less $. Various reasons, and yes we don't know exactly.

My point is no oil company will tell us exactly but this seems like more than most tell you. HPL and Amsoil and maybe a few others will tell you they are truly changing formulas. The big guys? Sometimes, they say they are changing, new bottle and everything. But maybe not the formula, OR they never tell us they change, we find out later.

All good.

 

[buster]

I took it as better because they state "This product has been reformulated using higher-quality components"

But yes we don't truly know. Do we ever know anything with certainty with this subject?

 

[TiGeo]

I took it as better because they state "This product has been reformulated using higher-quality components"

But yes we don't truly know. Do we ever know anything with certainty with this subject?

This is BITOG so yes.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

I have no complaints with my Amsoil Euro 0w30. I had hoped the engine would get quieter with it. But that's probably asking anybody's 0w oil to do more than it's possibly capable of.

If / when I buy Amsoil again, I'll try the Signature Series SP / Dexos 1 5w30 and blend it equally with Amsoil's SP 0w40, to kick-up the cst@100 viscosity level to bordering 12. The current 0w30 Euro has a cst@100 of around 12.3.

The Signature really interests me, as it's advertised online as as being Amsoil's only 5 star passenger gasoline motor oil.

Unable so far to get easy-to-find info on HPL additive ingredients / levels. But I still have a few months before I need to purchase something and my original intentions were to run Amsoil in the Kia and HPL in the Hyundai. But that might change, because I'm a Stickler on viewing broad product information that's relatively easy to find.. Otherwise, I move to either another brand name, or stay with the current one..

 

[vinu_neuro]

Without the approvals we don't know whether or not the updated oils pass the OEM requirements for wear, piston deposit, valve deposit, oxidation, etc. Amsoil lists some base oil info in the SDS' for the 0W euro oils (PAO), but omit it for the 5W products, so we are only left to make our own assumptions in that regard as well.

There's a reason the approvals exist. When a company is charging a premium for their products, my expectation is at minimum demonstrable performance. If they're not getting the oils approved, then they better do the salient OEM fired engine tests themselves (not just bench tests) and provide data on how much better their oils perform for the extra $$ I'm paying.

my $.02 as a past and potential return customer.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Without the approvals we don't know whether or not the updated oils pass the OEM requirements for wear, piston deposit, valve deposit, oxidation, etc. Amsoil lists some base oil info in the SDS' for the 0W euro oils (PAO), but omit it for the 5W products, so we are only left to make our own assumptions in that regard as well.

There's a reason the approvals exist. When a company is charging a premium for their products, my expectation is at minimum demonstrable performance. If they're not getting the oils approved, then they better do the salient OEM fired engine tests themselves (not just bench tests) and provide data on how much better their oils perform for the extra $$ I'm paying.

my $.02 as a past and potential return customer.

Blenders, if they want to retain the approval, have very little room to mess with the additive pack which they buy from one of the additive suppliers. This means that companies which "top treat", "enhance" etc. can't claim their product has an approval.

 

[vinu_neuro]

Blenders, if they want to retain the approval, have very little room to mess with the additive pack which they buy from one of the additive suppliers. This means that companies which "top treat", "enhance" etc. can't claim their product has an approval.

That's fine, however if anyone is charging a premium for their product over one's with OEM approvals, I want proof that their "enhanced" additives, base oils, etc are providing enhanced performance in the relevant engine tests.

 

[kschachn]

I have no complaints with my Amsoil Euro 0w30. I had hoped the engine would get quieter with it. But that's probably asking anybody's 0w oil to do more than it's possibly capable of.

What does the winter rating have to do with it? That's a 3.5 HT/HS oil, not a "0w" oil.

 

[kschachn]

That's fine, however if anyone is charging a premium for their product over one's with OEM approvals, I want proof that their "enhanced" additives, base oils, etc are providing enhanced performance in the relevant engine tests.

In that case then I would not purchase the product. They do have ones with approvals but the 0W-30 one does not.

Without the actual approval then it comes down to trust in the blender, if you don't trust them then I'd suggest you buy a brand that has the actual approval.

 

[vinu_neuro]

In that case then I would not purchase the product. They do have ones with approvals but the 0W-30 one does not.

Without the actual approval then it comes down to trust in the blender, if you don't trust them then I'd suggest you buy a brand that has the actual approval.

That's right.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

That's fine, however if anyone is charging a premium for their product over one's with OEM approvals, I want proof that their "enhanced" additives, base oils, etc are providing enhanced performance in the relevant engine tests.

Like what sort of proof? You want a claim that it performs X-times better on a bench test or something?

 

[vinu_neuro]

Like what sort of proof? You want a claim that it performs X-times better on a bench test or something?

Like I said in the first post, engine tests not bench tests. Bench tests are useful but have a limit on the insights they provide, and is the reason OEM approvals require a battery of fired-engine tests. This applies not only to lubricants and automotive, but almost any product in any industry.

There's a range of possibilities in a situation like this: performs same, better, significantly better, worse, significantly worse. How do the boutique oil companies know their oils perform better, have they done the full range of testing? If yes, and they perform better in engine tests than what you get from ones with approvals, surely they should publish the results. It would be the best possible marketing.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Like I said in the first post, engine tests not bench tests. Bench tests are useful but have a limit on the insights they provide, and is the reason OEM approvals require a battery of fired-engine tests.

There's a range of possibilities in a situation like this: performs same, better, significantly better, worse, significantly worse. How do the boutique oil companies know their oils perform better, have they done the full range of engine tests? If yes, and they perform better in engine tests than what you get from ones with approvals, surely they should publish the results. It would be the best possible marketing.

No company which sells motor oil provides engine test information. Ultimately you're relying on marketing, the label, and word of mouth regardless of whether you buy from a major or boutique brand. I used to be an "approvals" only kind of consumer until I understood exactly what was going on.

 

[buster]

Like I said in the first post, engine tests not bench tests. Bench tests are useful but have a limit on the insights they provide, and is the reason OEM approvals require a battery of fired-engine tests.

There's a range of possibilities in a situation like this: performs same, better, significantly better, worse, significantly worse. How do the boutique oil companies know their oils perform better, have they done the full range of testing? If yes, and they perform better in engine tests than what you get from ones with approvals, surely they should publish the results. It would be the best possible marketing.

When a blender buys an additive package, you're getting a known quality level based on the fact it meets xyz spec. Once the blender changes that, things get a little fuzzy. I suppose the additive supplier can advise the blender on where the top treat begins and ends, otherwise validation is going to have to be done through bench testing or UOA's is my guess.

 

[vinu_neuro]

Being that no company which sells motor oil provides that information do you not buy oil for your car?

They do provide that information by virtue of passing all the required tests to obtain the OEM approvals. And they're not charging extra $$ for their products.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

They do provide that information by virtue of passing the required tests to obtain the relevant OEM approvals. And they're not charging extra $$ for their products.

That's not how it works.

No 1: They buy the additive package, don't stray from the blending requirements , and then they can claim the oil has the approval. No tests on their part required. The base additive package is designed to meet the requirements at X cost. The boutique brands buy the same additive package and tweak it.

No 2: You just know they passed (ie. met the min requirement) but you don't know by how much they exceeded the minimum.

 

[vinu_neuro]

That's not how it works.

No 1: They buy the additive package and don't stray from the blending requirements then they can claim the oil has the approval. No tests on their part required. The base additive package is designed to meet the requirements at X cost. The boutique brands buy the same additive package and tweak it.

No 2: You just know they passed (ie. met the min requirement) but you don't know by how much they exceeded the minimum.

That's right, the additive packages and blending requirements have passed the OEM engine tests. And when an oil blender adheres to those they get the approval. And the customer knows they have passed the minimum requirements (which in the case of euro approvals is a pretty high specification of functional performance).

No 1: Are the boutique oil companies publishing their product component and blending specifications for customers to know what's in their oil? If they are 'tweaking' what has been validated, how do you know this new set of additives and/or blending requirements still passes the OEM engine tests?

No 2: They are charging premium $$ for their oils, there is an extra burden of proof associated with that. How much better are they performing than the cheap ones with approvals which meet the OEM specifications? They have not even demonstrated that they meet the minimum BMW, VW, Merc, Porsche requirements, let alone proven they are superior to the $25 products that do.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

That's right, the additive packages and blending requirements have passed the OEM engine tests. And when an oil blender adheres to those they get the approval. And the customer knows they have passed the minimum requirements (which in the case of euro approvals is a pretty high specification of functional performance).

No 1: Are the boutique oil companies publishing their product component and blending specifications for customers to know what's in their oil?

No 2: They are charging premium $$ for their oils. How much better are they performing than the cheap ones with approvals which meet the OEM specifications.

No 1: They not publishing anything less than what the majors are publishing.

No 2: This is difficult to quantify because so many consumers are "early changers" and performance is measured over time. For example you could run a conventional non-synthetic 10w40 in a euro car and change it every 3k miles where you're not likely to see a relevant difference vs a synthetic at that mileage. It's only when you push that interval out to 10k, 15k, 20k miles where the performance differences will reveal themselves. There are people who really push the interval on these boutique oils and UOA's are showing that theses oils can perform on really long drain intervals.

 

[vinu_neuro]

No 1: They not publishing anything less than what the majors are publishing.

No 2: This is difficult to quantify because so many consumers are "early changers" and performance is measured over time. For example you could run a conventional non-synthetic 10w40 in a euro car and change it every 3k miles where you're not likely to see a relevant difference vs a synthetic at that mileage. It's only when you push that interval out to 10k, 15k, 20k miles where the performance differences will reveal themselves. There are people who really push the interval on these boutique oils and UOA's are showing that theses oils can perform on really long drain intervals.

Oil companies with approvals are publishing they meet the OEM specifications. That doesn't just include the majors, but also smaller ones like Motul, Liquimoly, Ravenol, etc.

You are talking about extending oci's. I am talking about piston/liner wear, camshaft/tappet wear, piston deposits, etc. How do you know they meet the minimum OEM requirements? How much better are they than oils that have the approvals?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Oil companies with approvals are publishing they meet the OEM specifications. That doesn't just include the majors, but also smaller ones like Motul, Liquimoly, Ravenol, etc.

You are talking about extending oci's. I am talking about piston/liner wear, camshaft/tappet wear, piston deposits, etc. How do you know they meet the minimum OEM requirements? How much better are they than oils that have the approvals?

I said they not publishing anything less than what the majors are publishing.

Wear is measured over time so ya. It's about acceptable wear over an extend oil interval. You'll never know how much better like you'll never know how much better Mobil 1 FS is over Liqui Moly Top Tech even though M1 may claim to be best in class.

The only way you'll know an oil meets an approval is by reading the approval letter. Otherwise you're relying on advertising and labeling. This goes for Mobil 1, Shell, Ravenol, Castrol, Motul, etc. So I don't see how it's any different than the boutiques.