New Amsoil European Viscosities

[vinu_neuro]

I said they not publishing anything less than what the majors are publishing.

Wear is measured over time so ya. It's about acceptable wear over an extend oil interval. You'll never know how much better like you'll never know how much better Mobil 1 FS is over Liqui Moly Top Tech even though M1 may claim to be best in class.

The only way you'll know an oil meets an approval is by reading the approval letter. Otherwise you're relying on advertising and labeling. This goes for Mobil 1, Shell, Ravenol, Castrol, Motul, etc. So I don't see how it's any different than the boutiques.

Oil companies with approvals are publishing that their additives and blending specifications meet the OEM specifications. They consequently don't need to publish anything else.

The boutique oil companies do not have approvals, so how do you know what is or isn't in there, what has or hasn't been tweaked from what's approved, and if that product still meets the requirements?

You understand that an oil company that has an approval on their PDS and labeling cannot have it on there unless they actually meet it, right?

Everything you're written today indicates you don't believe in the merits of the euro OEM approval process and that you think there is room for widespread fraud in the lubricant industry. That is a dead end for this discussion. Enjoy your weekend.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Oil companies with approvals are publishing that their additives and blending specifications meet the OEM specifications. They consequently don't need to publish anything else.

No. They claim it meets the performance requirements.

The boutique oil companies do not have approvals, so how do you know what is or isn't in there, what has or hasn't been tweaked from what's approved, and if that product still meets the requirements?

Trust. It's the same trust that you rely upon with the majors who put "Mercedes Benz 229.72" on the bottle.

You understand that an oil company that has an approval on their PDS and labeling cannot have it on there unless they actually meet it, right?

They're not supposed to but there's no third-party verification. You're just trusting that their information is accurate.

Everything you're written today indicates you don't believe in the merits of the euro OEM approval process and that you think there is room for widespread fraud in the lubricant industry. That is a dead end for this discussion. Enjoy your weekend.

That's incorrect. I just said that the approvals fall within a performance window and boutique brands work on making a better product, for buyers who are less cost sensitive, which can perform better or for a longer period of time than the minimums set by the individual approvals.
I'm currently running a generic LL01 5w40 (LiquiMoly) in my BMW instead of something like Redline, Amsoil, or HPL because I only drive about 5k miles a year. Technically it doesn't make financial sense for me to use a higher performing product if I'm not willing to use it for say the full factory OCI of 10k miles. Based on my annual miles I could easily go 2 years rather than change every 1 yr.

 

[bigjl]

Like what sort of proof? You want a claim that it performs X-times better on a bench test or something?

That it meets the specs required by the engine it is going into would be a good thing.

If it doesn’t meet 508/509 it isn’t going in my daughters Q2

If it doesn’t meet RN0700/RN0710 it isn’t going in the Smart

If it doesn’t meet one of the required BMW LongLife specs in the handbook then it isn’t going in my 7 Series

There is a caveat, if the same engine has different oil specs for the same engine then I will use that spec if I think it’s a good idea

Like I did with my Jag X351, I used the PSA oil specs, 5w40 instead of 5w30

 

[bigjl]

No. They claim it meets the performance requirements.


Trust. It's the same trust that you rely upon with the majors who put "Mercedes Benz 229.72" on the bottle.


They're not supposed to but there's no third-party verification. You're just trusting that their information is accurate.



That's incorrect. I just said that the approvals fall within a performance window and boutique brands work on making a better product, for buyers who are less cost sensitive, which can perform better or for a longer period of time than the minimums set by the individual approvals.
I'm currently running a generic LL01 5w40 (LiquiMoly) in my BMW instead of something like Redline, Amsoil, or HPL because I only drive about 5k miles a year. Technically it doesn't make financial sense for me to use a higher performing product if I'm not willing to use it for say the full factory OCI of 10k miles. Based on my annual miles I could easily go 2 years rather than change every 1 yr.

I think you are confusing how things work in the USA with how things work in the rest of the World

Where a manufacturer of a vehicle states which oil specs are required or acceptable, like 508/509, LL04 or RN0700/0710 in my case.

If the oil manufacturer states the oil meets those specs then it meets those specs, there is no need to insist on manufacturer “approval” as appears to be the case in the USA.

Maybe ACEA trusts oil manufacturers not to make false claims?

If you service your vehicle outside the Dealer Network when under Warranty in the EU you only need to price servicing with parts of the same quality as OEM and the correctly specced oil from a VAT Registered Garage and the Warranty is valid under Block Exemption Rules.

You will not be allowed to extend your Warranty via the Manufacturers Approved Warranty Scheme and a Goodwill Repair is unlikely, which I would suggest is a good reason to have at least your scheduled maintenance done at a Main Dealer, with extra maintenance done by yourself, I do that and I had my my inlet manifolds replaced under goodwill 6 months outside of Warranty with star ship miles on my Jag XJL

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I think you are confusing how things work in the USA with how things work in the rest of the World

Where a manufacturer of a vehicle states which oil specs are required or acceptable, like 508/509, LL04 or RN0700/0710 in my case.

If the oil manufacturer states the oil meets those specs then it meets those specs, there is no need to insist on manufacturer “approval” as appears to be the case in the USA.

That's not true. For example Mercedes Benz requires the use of specific wording for an oil which they've formerly approved. The rules are set by the automaker not by the country in which the product is sold.

 

[edyvw]

I think you are confusing how things work in the USA with how things work in the rest of the World

Where a manufacturer of a vehicle states which oil specs are required or acceptable, like 508/509, LL04 or RN0700/0710 in my case.

If the oil manufacturer states the oil meets those specs then it meets those specs, there is no need to insist on manufacturer “approval” as appears to be the case in the USA.

Maybe ACEA trusts oil manufacturers not to make false claims?

If you service your vehicle outside the Dealer Network when under Warranty in the EU you only need to price servicing with parts of the same quality as OEM and the correctly specced oil from a VAT Registered Garage and the Warranty is valid under Block Exemption Rules.

You will not be allowed to extend your Warranty via the Manufacturers Approved Warranty Scheme and a Goodwill Repair is unlikely, which I would suggest is a good reason to have at least your scheduled maintenance done at a Main Dealer, with extra maintenance done by yourself, I do that and I had my my inlet manifolds replaced under goodwill 6 months outside of Warranty with star ship miles on my Jag XJL

After spending so much time here you still don’t understand basics.
Approval is approval! It is actually idea that originated in Europe, hence formation of ACEA (for other things too, unrelated to oil) in the beginning of 90s.
In Europe, it is actually far more important to use approved oils than in the US. In US there is law that protects consumers if they do oil changes etc. In Europe it doesn’t. EU encourages oil changes at dealerships, other service facilities due to environmental reasons since far more densely populated EU is not conducive to some DIY work.
I worked in Europe (before you jump with your: I live in EU) on development of oil that was approved for varios Low-SAPS approvals. However, main goal was VW504.00/507.00 as that was at that time key market. No dealership or service would buy that oil without approval. Actually, marketing of company advertised written approval from VW to wrestle its way into dealerships which were relying at that time on Shell.

 

[4329]

After spending so much time here you still don’t understand basics.
Approval is approval! It is actually idea that originated in Europe, hence formation of ACEA (for other things too, unrelated to oil) in the beginning of 90s.
In Europe, it is actually far more important to use approved oils than in the US. In US there is law that protects consumers if they do oil changes etc. In Europe it doesn’t. EU encourages oil changes at dealerships, other service facilities due to environmental reasons since far more densely populated EU is not conducive to some DIY work.
I worked in Europe (before you jump with your: I live in EU) on development of oil that was approved for varios Low-SAPS approvals. However, main goal was VW504.00/507.00 as that was at that time key market. No dealership or service would buy that oil without approval. Actually, marketing of company advertised written approval from VW to wrestle its way into dealerships which were relying at that time on Shell.

Perhaps this may help

 

[userfriendly]

Wonder what the aroma is on the 0w-30 flavor?

Unsharted territory.
I'm holding out for 15W16.

 

[edyvw]

Perhaps this may help

View attachment 215663

Perhaps you should read last bullet point. PSA can refuse warranty if oil is cause of damage. They can’t if oil is approved.
The whole point of approval!
Therefore, you can use extra virgin olive oil whose blender claims that meets PSA specifications , but if it is cause of damage, good luck.
Then, it is up to dealership to either cover damage or tell customer to take a hike.

 

[svenson]

The boutique oil companies do not have approvals, so how do you know what is or isn't in there, what has or hasn't been tweaked from what's approved, and if that product still meets the requirements?

by boutique oils, if i understand correctly you mean motul 300v or redline etc,these oils are addressed to less drivers not the majority ,for a specific track or race use,so these customers dont care about approvals that much since they realise that the use is for a short time, not a long OCI. and the boutique oil company knows that and suggests that.so its a win-win deal and info.

If you service your vehicle outside the Dealer Network when under Warranty in the EU you only need to price servicing with parts of the same quality as OEM and the correctly specced oil from a VAT Registered Garage and the Warranty is valid under Block Exemption Rules.

You will not be allowed to extend your Warranty via the Manufacturers Approved Warranty Scheme and a Goodwill Repair is unlikely, which I would suggest is a good reason to have at least your scheduled maintenance done at a Main Dealer, with extra maintenance done by yourself, I do that and I had my my inlet manifolds replaced under goodwill 6 months outside of Warranty with star ship miles on my Jag XJL

first paragraph: yes its true but dealerships deny that law,yes its a law for that,and they are trying to find a small problem ,to deny the warranty bcs.you never appeared there for an OCI under the warranty period..so yes customers have the right to go outside dealer service under a warranty ,but then happens what you describe in the second paragraph, unfortunately.
you have to fight to claim that right ,send emalis to the official dealer of your city-country ,or even to the german dealer and they cant finally do anything else but accept it,yes they will accept it, but then do you trust a dealership service that you had a quarrel earlier? nope,thanks.
so they make you not to go outside from the beginning until the expire of warranty but do 1-2 OCI at their dealership.

Perhaps you should read last bullet point. PSA can refuse warranty if oil is cause of damage. They can’t if oil is approved.
The whole point of approval!
Therefore, you can use extra virgin olive oil whose blender claims that meets PSA specifications , but if it is cause of damage, good luck.
Then, it is up to dealership to either cover damage or tell customer to take a hike.

you know i remember Chris719 saying at one post ,doing the known trick ,he lets them do the OCI in their dealership under warranty but then he changes the oil with one of his own.

so my question is how will they know which oil he used if he goes under a warranty for an engine problem?

how can they prove which oil was inside the engine since chris had replaced it with another? is there a method to find out which oil he used?
i dont think they can, so they will never prove that the damage was caused by wrong oil unless you are so stupid and put valvoline instead of oil ,that you can actually tell by miles away.i don't think that they can prove by seeing an oil if its approved or not.unless they are in superman's suit and use ironman's laboratory. and guys working there ,no fence if a member works there, but they are not the most equipped mechanics .

or unless someone is truly much more stupid than the guy with the valvoline and puts virgin olive oil.but i doubt that ,since virgin oil nowadays is far more expensive than engine oil per litre

 

[bigjl]

by boutique oils, if i understand correctly you mean motul 300v or redline etc,these oils are addressed to less drivers not the majority ,for a specific track or race use,so these customers dont care about approvals that much since they realise that the use is for a short time, not a long OCI. and the boutique oil company knows that and suggests that.so its a win-win deal and info.


first paragraph: yes its true but dealerships deny that law,yes its a law for that,and they are trying to find a small problem ,to deny the warranty bcs.you never appeared there for an OCI under the warranty period..so yes customers have the right to go outside dealer service under a warranty ,but then happens what you describe in the second paragraph, unfortunately.
you have to fight to claim that right ,send emalis to the official dealer of your city-country ,or even to the german dealer and they cant finally do anything else but accept it,yes they will accept it, but then do you trust a dealership service that you had a quarrel earlier? nope,thanks.
so they make you not to go outside from the beginning until the expire of warranty but do 1-2 OCI at their dealership.


you know i remember Chris719 saying at one post ,doing the known trick ,he lets them do the OCI in their dealership under warranty but then he changes the oil with one of his own.

so my question is how will they know which oil he used if he goes under a warranty for an engine problem?

how can they prove which oil was inside the engine since chris had replaced it with another? is there a method to find out which oil he used?
i dont think they can, so they will never prove that the damage was caused by wrong oil unless you are so stupid and put valvoline instead of oil ,that you can actually tell by miles away.i don't think that they can prove by seeing an oil if its approved or not.unless they are in superman's suit and use ironman's laboratory. and guys working there ,no fence if a member works there, but they are not the most equipped mechanics .

or unless someone is truly much more stupid than the guy with the valvoline and puts virgin olive oil.but i doubt that ,since virgin oil nowadays is far more expensive than engine oil per litre

BMW are particularly picky when it comes to refusing Warranty and Goodwill.

Their Customer Service in the UK is also shockingly bad.

I have extended the Warranty for a year and will do so again for a fifth year if the car is under 100k miles, as BMW Extended Warranty is Unlimited Miles but you can’t renew once past 100k

In my experience and the experience of others has shown that without full Dealer History you aren’t getting a Goodwill repair, I know of one poor bloke who was refused a front diff replacement only 2 weeks out of Warranty.

He had used a reputable BMW specialist for the last service, rest was BMW.

He had no success, emailed the UK CEO etc.

He had a Warranty claim for something else, I can’t remember what it was, no problem before the car turned 3 years old.

And when he tried to extend the Warranty they said know as it didn’t have BMW History.

 

[edyvw]

BMW are particularly picky when it comes to refusing Warranty and Goodwill.

Their Customer Service in the UK is also shockingly bad.

I have extended the Warranty for a year and will do so again for a fifth year if the car is under 100k miles, as BMW Extended Warranty is Unlimited Miles but you can’t renew once past 100k

In my experience and the experience of others has shown that without full Dealer History you aren’t getting a Goodwill repair, I know of one poor bloke who was refused a front diff replacement only 2 weeks out of Warranty.

He had used a reputable BMW specialist for the last service, rest was BMW.

He had no success, emailed the UK CEO etc.

He had a Warranty claim for something else, I can’t remember what it was, no problem before the car turned 3 years old.

And when he tried to extend the Warranty they said know as it didn’t have BMW History.

Now we are on track. In EU, yes, they can absolutely do that. And as you pointed, they will.
In the US, not so much. Going to approvals, as documents above show, they can refuse warranty. Meaning, dealership will be on the hook if let’s say BMW UK refuse warranty.

 

[edyvw]

by boutique oils, if i understand correctly you mean motul 300v or redline etc,these oils are addressed to less drivers not the majority ,for a specific track or race use,so these customers dont care about approvals that much since they realise that the use is for a short time, not a long OCI. and the boutique oil company knows that and suggests that.so its a win-win deal and info.


first paragraph: yes its true but dealerships deny that law,yes its a law for that,and they are trying to find a small problem ,to deny the warranty bcs.you never appeared there for an OCI under the warranty period..so yes customers have the right to go outside dealer service under a warranty ,but then happens what you describe in the second paragraph, unfortunately.
you have to fight to claim that right ,send emalis to the official dealer of your city-country ,or even to the german dealer and they cant finally do anything else but accept it,yes they will accept it, but then do you trust a dealership service that you had a quarrel earlier? nope,thanks.
so they make you not to go outside from the beginning until the expire of warranty but do 1-2 OCI at their dealership.


you know i remember Chris719 saying at one post ,doing the known trick ,he lets them do the OCI in their dealership under warranty but then he changes the oil with one of his own.

so my question is how will they know which oil he used if he goes under a warranty for an engine problem?

how can they prove which oil was inside the engine since chris had replaced it with another? is there a method to find out which oil he used?
i dont think they can, so they will never prove that the damage was caused by wrong oil unless you are so stupid and put valvoline instead of oil ,that you can actually tell by miles away.i don't think that they can prove by seeing an oil if its approved or not.unless they are in superman's suit and use ironman's laboratory. and guys working there ,no fence if a member works there, but they are not the most equipped mechanics .

or unless someone is truly much more stupid than the guy with the valvoline and puts virgin olive oil.but i doubt that ,since virgin oil nowadays is far more expensive than engine oil per litre

As pointed below, in EU they can ask for service history.
But, if they really want to go to determine whether oil is culprit, they could determine by doing much more expensive analysis if oil used is similar to one BMW uses.
Unlikely, but could happen.

 

[bigjl]

As pointed below, in EU they can ask for service history.
But, if they really want to go to determine whether oil is culprit, they could determine by doing much more expensive analysis if oil used is similar to one BMW uses.
Unlikely, but could happen.

The only Manufacturer that I know do an oil analysis for sure is Audi, with engines that should only have 508/509.

As far as invalidating the 3 Yr Manufacturers Warranty BMW allow you to go 10k miles past the due mileage before they invalidate the Warranty, which is mad, because the standard intervals are around 20k miles (they vary slightly due to the individual vehicles usage patterns

 

[edyvw]

The only Manufacturer that I know do an oil analysis for sure is Audi, with engines that should only have 508/509.

As far as invalidating the 3 Yr Manufacturers Warranty BMW allow you to go 10k miles past the due mileage before they invalidate the Warranty, which is mad, because the standard intervals are around 20k miles (they vary slightly due to the individual vehicles usage patterns

BMW operates what the UK regulations allow. It is business.
They would do same here, but different regulations and market environment.

 

[4329]

Perhaps you should read last bullet point. PSA can refuse warranty if oil is cause of damage. They can’t if oil is approved.
The whole point of approval!
Therefore, you can use extra virgin olive oil whose blender claims that meets PSA specifications , but if it is cause of damage, good luck.
Then, it is up to dealership to either cover damage or tell customer to take a hike.

PSA group have approved engine oil from Total and Mobil. My Peugeot owner’s manual calls up Total, however it also states ACEA C3 meets the requirements.

Could you please explain how warranty can be refused if using ACEA C3 oil from Total, Mobil. Shell, Penrite that do not carry the PSA approval. This may also apply to other car companies.

Many OEM approvals cross reference ACEA and API as do oil companies.

Does all this mean that the above-mentioned oil companies cannot be trusted in claiming their oil meets the ACEA C3 requirements and thus be refused warranty.

Outside of warranty do people still only use OEM approved engine oil and if not do the engines self-destruct using an unapproved oil of the correct viscosity and ACEA requirements.

And yes I did read the last bullet point.

 

[edyvw]

PSA group have approved engine oil from Total and Mobil. My Peugeot owner’s manual calls up Total, however it also states ACEA C3 meets the requirements.

Could you please explain how warranty can be refused if using ACEA C3 oil from Total, Mobil. Shell, Penrite that do not carry the PSA approval. This may also apply to other car companies.

Many OEM approvals cross reference ACEA and API as do oil companies.

Does all this mean that the above-mentioned oil companies cannot be trusted in claiming their oil meets the ACEA C3 requirements and thus be refused warranty.

Outside of warranty do people still only use OEM approved engine oil and if not do the engines self-destruct using an unapproved oil of the correct viscosity and ACEA requirements.

And yes I did read the last bullet point.

PSA approves more oils than just ones from Total and Mobil. They might have some marketing relations with them, which in case of PSA it is usually Total.
If PSA wants C3 oil, than it is C3 oil. If PSA wants a specific approval, then we are talking different thing.
Generally, French manufacturers are not that specific when it comes to approvals as German are. Many companies do recommend API, but not European. Approvals are European thing. There are very rare instances in last 20 years of Asian manufacturers requiring approvals. Some American manufacturers joined the game in the last 20 years.
As for how they can require and deny, we discussed here numerous times. If BMW requires LL04 approval to be used, you better be sure you use approved LL04 oil, not one that is just recommended, because there is big difference between approval and meets, recommends etc. That being said, some companies, specifically Shell, use wording Metts/exceeds although they are approved.
Again, each manufacturer has their own way how they approach the problem.
And yes, if oil is or it is suspected to be the cause of damage, they will deny the warranty if the manufacturer requires approved oils. Clearly stated in the document you posted.

 

[svenson]

As pointed below, in EU they can ask for service history.
But, if they really want to go to determine whether oil is culprit, they could determine by doing much more expensive analysis if oil used is similar to one BMW uses.
Unlikely, but could happen.

so far in the countries i have been working ,there are outside bmw specific service shops that are not connected with bmw central service offices,there where every service history from dealerships is registered. the reason of course is that this action requires from them a serious amount of money to use that connection.and they are not willing to pay for it.
so let them ask for service history as much as they want to.
but that means that you have to do some services small or big ones to dealership as well.otherwise if you go once in 5 years then yes they ask for service history.
if you go every 2-3 years they wont ask.and you will get a good will too,the cost very from client to client and from season to season,has to do with the demand ,policies etc.
unless the part you are trying to replace was replaced before again.

so its all things relative somehow ,in different European countries.
for sure bmw deutchland is very strict and typicall, no comparison.

as for oil analysis to find if its similar with bmw i have never heard a dealership to be in that process . they know its not going to be very accurate to prove something or it costs too much for them?? , so they go for the other option. they are trying to find another possible or non existing damage to justify that this will be the reason to get the client out of warranty.this i have heard it numerous times.

 

[bigjl]

BMW operates what the UK regulations allow. It is business.
They would do same here, but different regulations and market environment.

There isn’t a regulation that specifies when your Warranty is invalidated in the UK, or the EU as UK Law still mirrors EU Law.

Ford is very happy to invalidate your Warranty on a car with an EcoBoom if you haven’t followed the maintenance schedule correctly.

Ford is also not great when it comes to their 3.0 diesel engines even though the bottom end problems have returned since they modified the oil pump in the Euro 6 engines.

 

[edyvw]

There isn’t a regulation that specifies when your Warranty is invalidated in the UK, or the EU as UK Law still mirrors EU Law.

Ford is very happy to invalidate your Warranty on a car with an EcoBoom if you haven’t followed the maintenance schedule correctly.

Ford is also not great when it comes to their 3.0 diesel engines even though the bottom end problems have returned since they modified the oil pump in the Euro 6 engines.

There isn’t, which allows them to do it. That is the point.