Nearly 50% of men who have never flown or landed an airplane think they could safely land a passenger airplane

[Astro14]

Yeah, there's tons to need to know and not likely a good outcome. But it's a better chance than if I just sit in my seat and wait, no matter how small. Worst case I bring it in for a fairly straight, fairly level crash rather than a drop like a rock crash. Either way, I'm not just sitting in the back waiting for the 100% certainty. 99.9997 is still better than 100.

No. Worst case, you lose control through a stall or, more likely, over controlling the flight controls.

You hit going down. Everyone dies.

That’s also the most likely outcome.

Holding the airplane straight and level as it goes through configuration, drag, and trim changes is unlikely.

Without those changes, you will crash.

Even if you manage aircraft control during those changes, they have to be done at the right time to manage the flight path to get near a runway.

Control of flight path, to end up at the runway you’re hoping to land on, is even more unlikely. You don’t know what the proper flight path looks like, so how do you think you’re going to achieve it?

Just because I make it look easy, doesn’t mean that it is easy.

It took me years and years of training to be able to do it.

So, best case: you fall short of being able to do it.

Don’t kid yourself.

 

[LDB]

No. Worst case, you lose control through a stall or, more likely, over controlling the flight controls.

You hit going down. Everyone dies.

That’s also the most likely outcome.

Holding the airplane straight and level as it goes through configuration, drag, and trim changes is unlikely.

Without those changes, you will crash.

Even if you manage aircraft control during those changes, they have to be done at the right time to manage the flight path to get near a runway.

Control of flight path, to end up at the runway you’re hoping to land on, is even more unlikely. You don’t know what the proper flight path looks like, so how do you think you’re going to achieve it?

Just because I make it look easy, doesn’t mean that it is easy.

It took me years and years of training to be able to do it.

So, best case: you fall short of being able to do it.

Don’t kid yourself.

And no matter what, all those things are more likely to happen and worse if I remain in my seat and just wait. The difference between a chance and no chance. And no matter how small and how unlikely, it's still a better chance than sitting and doing nothing.

 

[wwillson]

And no matter what, all those things are more likely to happen and worse if I remain in my seat and just wait. The difference between a chance and no chance. And no matter how small and how unlikely, it's still a better chance than sitting and doing nothing.

Doing something will make you feel better at the time, but the outcome will be the same. The outcome is inevitable, at least you had the human drive to survive, that I applaud.

 

[Astro14]

And no matter what, all those things are more likely to happen and worse if I remain in my seat and just wait. The difference between a chance and no chance. And no matter how small and how unlikely, it's still a better chance than sitting and doing nothing.

I completely understand your desire to take action. Totally get it.

Here is a question, however.

If you were the flight attendant, and had to choose someone that you would allow into the cockpit to make the attempt.

How would you choose?

On the basis of their confidence?

Because we’ve clearly seen that confidence does not equal competence.

On the basis of experience?

Because I have seen passengers mis-represent their medical expertise and experience during medical emergencies.

So, in our hypothetical situation, in which both pilots are incapacitated, and the flight attendant is going to open the cockpit door, just who do we let in?

Further, what if you’re the second person in line, and you think you’re going to do a better job than the first person in line, what do you do to remove them from the seat, so you can sit in it and you get a shot instead of them?

We will never know, but this exact scenario likely happened during the events of United 93.

 

[LDB]

Doing something will make you feel better at the time, but the outcome will be the same. The outcome is inevitable, at least you had the human drive to survive, that I applaud.

That very well may be, but once in a great while the inevitable is introduced to an alternate reality. It's very unlikely, but if I don't try it's impossible. And besides, my mom told me there is nothing I can't do if I choose to do it. I can't let my mom down.

 

[JHZR2]

Then I will make you an offer. Put you in the cockpit of a 767 and without my help, and without a bunch of studying, see how you do.

I’ve got folding money that says you crash.

I was at GE once and they let me run an energy efficient train simulator. It was set up to run the train exactly as the engineer on an actual train operated it. That was complex, and while I could make it start and stop, I failed because of overspeed in certain locations, braking, etc. And I had help to learn the control.

Multiply the complexity many fold, and have many more degrees of freedom due to not being “on rails”, and I can’t see how it would be possible. Maybe a layperson could manually control a plane in a direction for some time, with minimal adjustments, but after that all bets are off…

 

[LDB]

I completely understand your desire to take action. Totally get it.

Here is a question, however.

If you were the flight attendant, and had to choose someone that you would allow into the cockpit to make the attempt.

How would you choose?

On the basis of their confidence?

Because we’ve clearly seen that confidence does not equal competence.

On the basis of experience?

Because I have seen passengers mid-represent their medical expertise and experience during medical emergencies.

So, in our hypothetical situation, in which both pilots are incapacitated, and the flight attendant is going to open the cockpit door, just who do we let in?

Further, what if you’re the second person in line, and you think you’re going to do a better job than the first person in line, what do you do to remove them from the seat, so you can sit in it and you get a shot instead of them?

We will never know, but this exact scenario likely happened during the events of United 93.

That's a good question and has no easy or good answer. I'd almost rather have to be in the pilot's chair than deal with that question.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Actually, most of the time that I fly, I’m dressed casually. But with my ID, the flight attendants are more than happy to let me up.

The flight deck door is typically open until just moments before pushback.

But, I do make it a point to board fairly early, so that I can swing by the Flight Deck, say hi, and not interfere with those last few minutes when I know the pilots are getting very busy.

It’s usually the lead flight attendant who is greeting and standing by the cockpit door. So on my way up, or on my way back, I will always let them know where my seat is and “let me know if you need anything“.

There is a security, and safety aspect to that. There have been several occasions in my career when the flight attendant has come and found me, because they need my help.

Whether it’s a matter of passenger conduct, or aircraft issue, I am a resource. It has most often been a passenger conduct issue, where they need some help, or they need to be able to separate a couple of people on a completely full flight, and they know I will understand the situation and be willing to swap seats.

Just as Denny Fitch was a resource to the crew on United 231, a pilot, whether in uniform, or not, is a resource to the crew for a variety of situations, beyond the obvious incapacitated pilot.

The only one that very few people will even know about though is that there's an air marshal on the plane. I approve of Federal Law Enforcement on airplanes for safety. Never ever before recently have I seen so much misbehaving on a airplane. People don't understand the gift and luxury of letting people board his aircraft. Sailors and Marines board a ship after saluting the officer and being granted permission to come on board. While this won't happen on civilian aircraft, the respect to the Captain and his officers should be demonstrated by all riders.

 

[Donald]

Well apparently there have also been zero times both pilot and copilot were incapacitated to the point neither could fly the plane.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Well apparently there have also been zero times both pilot and copilot were incapacitated to the point neither could fly the plane.

Wrong.

Did you read all the posts?

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

The only one that very few people will even know about though is that there's an air marshal on the plane. I approve of Federal Law Enforcement on airplanes for safety. Never ever before recently have I seen so much misbehaving on a airplane. People don't understand the gift and luxury of letting people board his aircraft. Sailors and Marines board a ship after saluting the officer and being granted permission to come on board. While this won't happen on civilian aircraft, the respect to the Captain and his officers should be demonstrated by all riders.

Love to comment on air marshalls ( in-flight security officers up here ) but I can't for security reasons.

 

[Astro14]

Well apparently there have also been zero times both pilot and copilot were incapacitated to the point neither could fly the plane.

Most recently - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

If you didn't read my previous post - here is the synopsis:

Both pilots became incapacitated due to a pressurization problem. A flight attendant, who was a licensed pilot, broke into the cockpit. He was observed by F-16s in the cockpit, but never made contact with ATC, and didn't change the flight path of the airplane.

Everyone on board died when the airplane ran out of fuel and crashed.

 

[dnewton3]

First, we have to acknowledge that "safely" landing any plane for a professional or even hobbyist pilot is defined differently contrasted to any novice behind the yoke. If I (a total plane noob) were to attempt to land a plane, it would ONLY be in a total emergency where the pilot was incapacitated and no other person of any air-flight skill was present. If I can get the plane down with some (hopefully all) souls on board alive, that is a bonafide "safe" landing. I don't give two hoots about the aircraft at all as long as I and the other passengers survive. So the phrase "safely landing a plane" means different things in differnent situations.

Scenario ...
moderately complex aircraft system
pilot incapacitated
inexperienced novice person takes over controls
Issues ...
- does the person have the ability to control his/her emotions and not panic?
- does the person know how to keep plane level long enough to call for help on radio?
- does the person know how to use radio?
etc, etc, etc ...

Possible Outcome 1:
person gets talked all the way through all critical operations and lands the plane (perhaps with damage to airframe, but all souls live).
This does not presume that "everything" goes well, but that enough things pass a minimum "must have" such that the plane lands on terra firma without being a fire-ball on impact
Potential for living through the event? 5% at best

Possible Outcome 2:
no one steps forward to attempt to land the plane ("safely" or not); egos aside, if no person trys to land the plane, the plane will land itself ... in a very finite and cataclysmic manner
Potential for living through the event? 0% at best

I'd rather die trying. I'm gonna try to land that plane because the alternative is certain death. 5% is better than 0%!
Can I do it "safely"? Dunno - but I'm gonna try!

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I read the original article outside of this forum. Even if it's not zero it's such a tiny number it's not worth worrying about.

Not worrying about the remote odds is not the same as saying it’s happened zero times.

Sometimes people hit the wrong types of lottery.

 

[Propflux01]

I flew and landed a C-130 in the actual flight simulator. I landed it. Where i messed up was once on the runway, I couldn't get the rudder steering quite right and ran off the tarmac. I couldn't grasp the concept of steering with the rudder first until it slowed enough for the tiller. Too much over correction. Never flown in my life.

Then, there is also Richard Russel, who had no flying experience, yet barrel rolled a stolen Q400 and basically flew around for an hour before deliberately crashing it. Now, not as big as a 737, but pretty good for someone that never flew.

 

[skyactiv]

I would be a poor candidate, a nervous wreck. I'd much rather be at the controls of a freight train.

 

[Jdeere562]

Best I could do is put my head down in my lap. Try and kiss my rear end goodbye.

 

[GON]

I fly alot. What this thread has taught me is that if both pilots get incapacitated, and no other pilot on the airliner, looks like it is a good time to send a text to my Wife and share how much I love her.

 

[y_p_w]

I would be a poor candidate, a nervous wreck. I'd much rather be at the controls of a freight train.

Freight trains are easy. There are some difficult things (like communicating with the dispatcher/conductors and block signaling), but it's basically a throttle and brakes. Heck - passenger trains are easy. I could easily stop a passenger train. Then get arrested for my trouble. Several passengers have done that with the emergency brake.

 

[Al]

Glad i did not get involved here.