Nearly 50% of men who have never flown or landed an airplane think they could safely land a passenger airplane

[KrisZ]

I wonder the percentage that thinks they could fly the space shuttle isn’t that just a fancier plane too? There is probably nothing to it, the spirit of Von Braun alone would surely guide you

 

[wwillson]

I once read an article that stated crashes occurred more frequently because of pilots not trusting their artificial horizons, and succumbing to spatial disorientation, then there were caused by outright failure of the actual instrument itself.

One of the basic tenents of instrument flying is instrument cross-check. You are taught how to identify an instrument or instrument system failure. When flying IMC (in the clouds) you must trust your instruments completely, but also be able to understand how to identify when an instrument(s) indication is wrong. It takes a lot of practice and a fundamental understanding of how your systems work. This is a must, period. When you take your instrument check ride, it is common for the examiner to stealthily pull a breaker on one of more electrical instruments and watch how you react. If you don't identify the malfunction and react correctly, you don't pass and you shouldn't. As an instrument instructor, I did have a few people that simply didn't have the ability to handle the complexity of instrument flying and they quit before getting to the check ride. To fly instruments, you must be very good at visualizing the big picture and very good at the details. Not everyone is.

 

[Astro14]

Without having additional information one would try to find the radios and tune to 121.5?

That’s a good plan. But if you’ve never seen the radio management panel before, how would you do that? It’s already tuned on one radio, in most circumstances, but that’s not the same as being able to talk on it.

If you have never flown before, would you even know that 121.5 was a good plan?

If you do figure it out, then, who are you talking to? An ATC controller doesn’t have a Boeing/Airbus type rating.

They can tell you where to go, but not how to fly the airplane.

It is quite clear, from speed/altitude assignments I’ve been given, that ATC controllers don’t know how to fly an airplane. We have to use the words, “unable” often, or clarify, “I can give you the speed, or the altitude, at that fix, which would you like?”

So, no, ATC isn’t going to be much help. If you can figure out how to change heading and altitude (and the licensed pilot FA on the Helios flight could not, so it’s a really big IF) they can tell you where to go, and that’s it.

Further, and this is really important, airliners aren’t like little airplanes.

Stall speed in a Cessna is pretty consistent, because the fuel is a small fraction of the weight. In a big airplane, fuel and cargo weight can dramatically change the reference speeds. Same 757 airframe, on one day, I’m landing at 123 knots, another, at 155.

Flap settings in little airplanes make only minor differences in speeds, but the multitude of flap settings in a big airplane require understanding how to use them to manage both speed and drag. The top speed of an airliner is several times the landing speed, the envelope is much bigger, and that’s accomplished, in part, by the complex flaps - so the flap system makes much more dramatic changes in trim, drag and lift than it does in little airplanes. There aren’t any fixed speeds at which you do things with flaps, those speeds vary with weight.

A lot. On a 747-400 at MGTOW, for example, we didn’t retract the flaps fully until 264 knots and our minimum clean speed was 284 (we were allowed to go above 250 below 10,000, and LAX center, and OAK center knew we needed to go fast on climb out). But for landing, we could wait until a much lower speed to extend flaps 1.

To keep the airplane in the sweet spot between stall and max flap extension speed requires an understanding of the current weight, the appropriate speed for each flap setting.

To manage the descent, you need to understand drag, and how to manage it with flaps, speed brakes and landing gear. An airliner is slick. It’s designed to go fast. It has jet engines that produce thrust even when at idle. Idle power in a Cessna gets you a good descent. Idle power in an airliner gets you a modest descent.

Without knowing how any of this, lift, drag, configuration, trim, descent profile, etc. works, being able to do it, without any help, isn’t even close to realistic.

 

[kballowe]

WOW ! Whaat's amazing here is that this has already gone nine pages, and it isn't an oil thread !

 

[Revving2Redline]

Actually, most of the time that I fly, I’m dressed casually. But with my ID, the flight attendants are more than happy to let me up.

The flight deck door is typically open until just moments before pushback.

But, I do make it a point to board fairly early, so that I can swing by the Flight Deck, say hi, and not interfere with those last few minutes when I know the pilots are getting very busy.

It’s usually the lead flight attendant who is greeting and standing by the cockpit door. So on my way up, or on my way back, I will always let them know where my seat is and “let me know if you need anything“.

There is a security, and safety aspect to that. There have been several occasions in my career when the flight attendant has come and found me, because they need my help.

Whether it’s a matter of passenger conduct, or aircraft issue, I am a resource. It has most often been a passenger conduct issue, where they need some help, or they need to be able to separate a couple of people on a completely full flight, and they know I will understand the situation and be willing to swap seats.

Just as Denny Fitch was a resource to the crew on United 231, a pilot, whether in uniform, or not, is a resource to the crew for a variety of situations, beyond the obvious incapacitated pilot.

So it's my other half...a Nurse.

 

[Astro14]

Since "glass cockpits" have come into vogue on most newer aircraft. Has there been any statistics compiled, as to the failure rate of analog instruments vs. glass screen, multi functional panels going dark for whatever reason?

For example take the artificial horizon. Most of the larger, older analog cockpits had as many as 3. (Left seat, right seat, and usually a third smaller unit located somewhere in the middle of the instrument panel). That all worked independently off of different gyros.

So there was quite a bit of comparable redundancy if one of them looked to be "off". As opposed to these big, multi functional flat screen monitors. Where if the monitor goes, you lose everything.

I once read an article that stated crashes occurred more frequently because of pilots not trusting their artificial horizons, and succumbing to spatial disorientation, then there were caused by outright failure of the actual instrument itself. (The JFK Jr. crash among the most notable).

The glass is extraordinarily reliable.

Multiple redundant screens. Multiple redundant data sources. A complete third set of gauges for critical items like attitude, airspeed, altitude and ILS, so if all the screens went down, I could still fly the airplane in IMC.

I think I have written up one screen failure in several thousand hours of flying, and it wasn’t the primary attitude display.

JFK junior is a tragedy of overconfidence and poor decision making. He had a private pilot license. He was legal to fly at night. But night flying isn’t easy. Over water at night, even in visual conditions, is basically instrument conditions.

You really need an instrument rating because the ocean and sky are indistinguishable - it’s all just black with some points of light. Believe me when I tell you that there is nothing darker and more disorienting than being over water at night. I’ve spent a lot of my flying career in those conditions.

JFK Jr. Got disoriented and lost control. He had a private pilot license, but was in over his head. Everyone on board died as a result of the poor decision to take off in those conditions (night, planned over water).

A guy with a license couldn’t even keep the wings level at night. So, if a non-pilot, with no training, had to take over the controls of my airplane, over water, at night, they’re going to be less successful than JFK Jr…

 

[wwillson]

Without knowing how any of this, lift, drag, configuration, trim, descent profile, etc. works, being able to do it, without any help, isn’t even close to realistic.

If you don't get your speeds right, you stand a very good chance of crashing. When you land at 155kts 178mph, it's fast. Anyone who isn't a pilot is going to tend to want to slow down as the ground gets closer, because you feel the speed. How in the world is a none trained pilot going to manage their erroneous desire to pull the throttles and when they get the ground rush? That's the assumption that they got the airplane into a position to land, which isn't going to happen anyway. When they deploy flaps and gear, they are going to stall, because it changes the aerodynamics so much on a large airplane and they aren't pilots, they don't understand pitch changes, power management, or how to stabilize an approach. 0% probability of landing safely.

 

[Astro14]

So it's my other half...a Nurse.

That’s great, and I’m sure they appreciate it.

Knowing who the medical professionals are on board is a great courtesy to the crew. I’ve personally had need of their service for sick, ill, or injured passengers many times.

Flight attendants are interested in a couple types of people; medical, pilots, and, this part is really important after 9-11, able bodied passengers.

An able bodied passenger (physically strong, willing to help) is someone capable of restraining another should violence happen, as happened last week, on United, when a crazy person said he was taking over the airplane and tried to stab a flight attendant with an improvised weapon.

So, during boarding the FAs are identifying those people. You never know when they might be needed.

 

[wwillson]

JFK junior is a tragedy of overconfidence and poor decision making. He had a private pilot license. He was legal to fly at night. But night flying isn’t easy. Over water at night, even in visual conditions, is basically instrument conditions.

You really need an instrument rating because the ocean and sky are indistinguishable - it’s all just black with some points of light. Believe me when I tell you that there is nothing darker and more disorienting than being over water at night. I’ve spent a lot of my flying career in those conditions.

JFK Jr. Got disoriented and lost control. He had a private pilot license, but was in over his head. Everyone on board died as a result of the poor decision to take off in those conditions (night, planned over water).

A guy with a license couldn’t even keep the wings level at night. So, if a non-pilot, with no training, had to take over the controls of my airplane, over water, at night, they’re going to be less successful than JFK Jr…

I had a great method to teach my students that they did not want to fly over water at night. One of our night training flight paths was along the lake shore of Lake Michigan with the city of Chicago on one side and Lake Michigan on the other. Look toward the city and the view was spectacular with millions of reference points, look over Lake Michigan and it's nothing but blackness, deep blackness like you've never seen. It's disorienting and you might as well be in the clouds. I would have them make a turn to 090° and fly the heading for a few minutes. It always freaked them out, every time without fail they would get scared and ask if we could turn around. We would turn around toward the city and all was happy again, because they had horizon references, lots of references. Every student I did this with swore, after seeing the blackness, that they would never ever make the mistake of flying over water at night. Good choice.

 

[4WD]

WOW ! Whaat's amazing here is that this has already gone nine pages, and it isn't an oil thread !

View attachment 146561

No MOFT or delta-P and no PAO and no:

 

[jeepman3071]

I had a great method to teach my students that they did not want to fly over water at night. One of our night training flight paths was along the lake shore of Lake Michigan with the city of Chicago on one side and Lake Michigan on the other. Look toward the city and the view was spectacular with millions of reference points, look over Lake Michigan and it's nothing but blackness, deep blackness like you've never seen. It's disorienting you might as well be in the clouds. I would have them make a turn to 090° and fly the heading for a few minutes. It always freaked them out, every time without fail they would get scared and ask if we could turn around. We would turn around toward the city and all was happy again, because they had horizon references, lots of references. Every student I did this with swore, after seeing the blackness, that they would never ever make the mistake of flying over water at night. Good choice.

Yep, my uncle is a flight instructor for small planes (Cessnas) and has said the same thing, as well as the same story about JFK. People don't understand how different it is flying on a nice clear sunny day vs. relying on instruments only because of fog, clouds, water, etc. Having mechanical knowledge is even more important when flying to understand what the plane is doing and how it reacts vs. a car.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Like Clint Eastwood said in a movie…

Every man has got to know his limitations…




I’ll equate this to sports as I typically do..


One night my good friend ( God rest his soul ) Scott we’re playing volleyball at the gym. Put other friends had left and these 4 guys came in and wanted to play… Scott says to me.. I don’t want to play with these idiots… And I said yeah I don’t either. He said why don’t you and me play those 4 guys and let’s just beat the hell out of them. I laughed and said hellyeah !!

So he went and told those guys that and you could tell they were a bit incredulous… Well that disappeared quite quickly after my friend Scott and I started mopping the floor up with them…. EASILY…. 2 against 4 and we were beating the brakes off those 4 guys…

Why ???

Because we had that much talent, skill and experience vs 4 guys of whom had hardly no experience or skills.

And like I said when I played basketball and it fits with this whole thread …

It’s easy to talk number2 from the sidelines…

And women. Some of them, like men, do not know their limits.

Wish I could say more.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Without having additional information one would try to find the radios and tune to 121.5?

Chances are, by the time a replacement pilot takes over, the Plane has flown beyond the VHF reception range of the last assigned frequency.

ATC monitors 121.5.

Just tell them the flight number ( they will be suspicious why the previous pilots lost contact anyways ) or approximate location and they will assign a frequency.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Chances are, by the time a replacement pilot takes over, the Plane has flown beyond the VHF reception range of the last assigned frequency.

ATC monitors 121.5.

Just tell them the flight number ( they will be suspicious why the previous pilots lost contact anyways ) or approximate location and they will assign a frequency.

The situation I described was if I, or some other experienced pilot, found themselves in a situation like that.

Of coarse 121.5 or even talking to ATC isn’t going to help get the plane on the ground.

Cell phone might work, would call my flights ops dispatch.

Obviously, except in the movie “ Airplane “ or it’s a “mad, Mad, Mad world ( great movie )“ , they cannot help someone fly a complex jet with all due respect to ATC ( I have a very high opinion of ATC, and for good reason, my life depends on them ).

It’s just to let them know, there is a problem on board and who should I be talking to ( they may think it’s a hijacking ).

Oh yeah, forgot, transponder to 7700.

Not bragging, I would not want to ever be in a situation like that but since we are talking about it , that’s what I would do.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I had a great method to teach my students that they did not want to fly over water at night. One of our night training flight paths was along the lake shore of Lake Michigan with the city of Chicago on one side and Lake Michigan on the other. Look toward the city and the view was spectacular with millions of reference points, look over Lake Michigan and it's nothing but blackness, deep blackness like you've never seen. It's disorienting and you might as well be in the clouds. I would have them make a turn to 090° and fly the heading for a few minutes. It always freaked them out, every time without fail they would get scared and ask if we could turn around. We would turn around toward the city and all was happy again, because they had horizon references, lots of references. Every student I did this with swore, after seeing the blackness, that they would never ever make the mistake of flying over water at night. Good choice.

Great way to show them.

I had a student ( after he got his licence ) kill himself in a spiral like JFK Jr.

Found out when buying coffee at a restaurant on my way flying ( I hadn't flown with him for years ) and saw the story on the front page of the news paper.

Horrible way to go.

 

[Cujet]

How can this possibly be?

Dunning Kruger

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Dunning Kruger

Yeah, true , but also what their final approach would look like.

 

[LDB]

That’s a good plan. But if you’ve never seen the radio management panel before, how would you do that? It’s already tuned on one radio, in most circumstances, but that’s not the same as being able to talk on it.

If you have never flown before, would you even know that 121.5 was a good plan?

If you do figure it out, then, who are you talking to? An ATC controller doesn’t have a Boeing/Airbus type rating.

They can tell you where to go, but not how to fly the airplane.

It is quite clear, from speed/altitude assignments I’ve been given, that ATC controllers don’t know how to fly an airplane. We have to use the words, “unable” often, or clarify, “I can give you the speed, or the altitude, at that fix, which would you like?”

So, no, ATC isn’t going to be much help. If you can figure out how to change heading and altitude (and the licensed pilot FA on the Helios flight could not, so it’s a really big IF) they can tell you where to go, and that’s it.

Further, and this is really important, airliners aren’t like little airplanes.

Stall speed in a Cessna is pretty consistent, because the fuel is a small fraction of the weight. In a big airplane, fuel and cargo weight can dramatically change the reference speeds. Same 757 airframe, on one day, I’m landing at 123 knots, another, at 155.

Flap settings in little airplanes make only minor differences in speeds, but the multitude of flap settings in a big airplane require understanding how to use them to manage both speed and drag. The top speed of an airliner is several times the landing speed, the envelope is much bigger, and that’s accomplished, in part, by the complex flaps - so the flap system makes much more dramatic changes in trim, drag and lift than it does in little airplanes. There aren’t any fixed speeds at which you do things with flaps, those speeds vary with weight.

A lot. On a 747-400 at MGTOW, for example, we didn’t retract the flaps fully until 264 knots and our minimum clean speed was 284 (we were allowed to go above 250 below 10,000, and LAX center, and OAK center knew we needed to go fast on climb out). But for landing, we could wait until a much lower speed to extend flaps 1.

To keep the airplane in the sweet spot between stall and max flap extension speed requires an understanding of the current weight, the appropriate speed for each flap setting.

To manage the descent, you need to understand drag, and how to manage it with flaps, speed brakes and landing gear. An airliner is slick. It’s designed to go fast. It has jet engines that produce thrust even when at idle. Idle power in a Cessna gets you a good descent. Idle power in an airliner gets you a modest descent.

Without knowing how any of this, lift, drag, configuration, trim, descent profile, etc. works, being able to do it, without any help, isn’t even close to realistic.

Yeah, there's tons to need to know and not likely a good outcome. But it's a better chance than if I just sit in my seat and wait, no matter how small. Worst case I bring it in for a fairly straight, fairly level crash rather than a drop like a rock crash. Either way, I'm not just sitting in the back waiting for the 100% certainty. 99.9997 is still better than 100.

 

[KrisZ]

I’m fairly certain I could bring it into a nose dive, maybe even a flat spin so that everyone passes out from g forces before hitting the ground. Humane yes? No?

 

[wings&wheels]

From my sim ride, my turn in the right seat. I knew, from reading and secondhand experience, how good the sims are, but I was absolutely blown away by just how good.

KBOS 27 Spooled up and ready to go...virtually.