National Park Service cited AWD owner on 4WD trail!

[Elkins45]

IMO the issue, at least in Canyonlands is clearance and suspension more than traction. I drove 90%+ of the White Rim in 2wd and I only used 4low on one particularly rough and steep portion of Hardscrabble Hill. I don’t think I went faster than 15 mph the entire time we were on rock and barely more than that on the sandy sections.

 

[HemiBenny]

I would take our AWD CX50 into places that I wouldn’t try with a Subaru. That’s only because the Mazda doesn’t have a CVT that will be screaming at you because it’s HOT!
I would take our AWD CX50 into places that I wouldn’t try with my 2wd Ram 1500. (If my wife let me.)

I wouldn’t take our AWD CX50 into certain places that I used to take my old JK, because it’s not a true 4WD and it doesn’t have the clearance.
Most importantly, I wouldn’t take our AWD CX50 into certain places because my wife would kill me.

Some of these AWD vehicles are very capable of getting you so far, but people need to know the mechanical limits of their vehicles and their systems. This is where “marketing” gets people in trouble.
Even if a vehicle makes it through a “certain” trail doesn't mean it’s capable of doing it in the real world. If you have to destroy the vehicle to make it through, it’s not really capable of doing it.

 

[Jetronic]

Completely irrelevant. If you want some metric, figure crawl ratio which is 1st gear ratio x t-case ratio x differential ratio.

Note here that without low range (typically 2.7:1 give or take) you're missing A LOT of gear reduction. You're even further behind going up against a Rubi at 4:1 (392 excluded)

But then you still need to consider tire size.

Still, speed at a given RPM fails to consider gradient climbing, "compression braking" descending, and torque converter slippage.

And as noted, electric vehicles throw nearly all of this out the window.

I'm not off roading this, it's my traffic jam gear.. it means I can drive at 3 mph without clutch slippage, which almost no other vehicle with a clutch can (except the real off roaders)

No torque converter here....

 

[97prizm]

Good. Something the article doesn’t mention and IMO is the biggest part, is AWD doesn’t have a low range.

AWD cars faced with an obstacle where you can’t get a run at it, you can have your foot to the floor and have no power at all, overheating the transmission and going nowhere. No amount of ground clearance or rugged tires will help that.

From reading Subaru added an "x-trac" function to the Forrester in 2021. It essentially locks the 4 wheels together like 4wd and turns off the traction control. One of the car magazines testing it on a deep snowy trail and couldn't get it stuck. Apparently they Also pulled out other vehicles.

 

[97prizm]

I would take our AWD CX50 into places that I wouldn’t try with a Subaru. That’s only because the Mazda doesn’t have a CVT that will be screaming at you because it’s HOT!
I would take our AWD CX50 into places that I wouldn’t try with my 2wd Ram 1500. (If my wife let me.)

I wouldn’t take our AWD CX50 into certain places that I used to take my old JK, because it’s not a true 4WD and it doesn’t have the clearance.
Most importantly, I wouldn’t take our AWD CX50 into certain places because my wife would kill me.

Some of these AWD vehicles are very capable of getting you so far, but people need to know the mechanical limits of their vehicles and their systems. This is where “marketing” gets people in trouble.
Even if a vehicle makes it through a “certain” trail doesn't mean it’s capable of doing it in the real world. If you have to destroy the vehicle to make it through, it’s not really capable of doing it.

I wonder how your cx50 won't do off road if it had a set of Mickey Thompson mud bogger AT strapped to it and 3 inches greater lift?

 

[HemiBenny]

I wonder how your cx50 won't do off road if it had a set of Mickey Thompson mud bogger AT strapped to it and 3 inches greater lift?

I don’t think I’ll be finding out. LP Adventure and HRG make 1.5” lifts for them and some Mazda dealers will even install them.

If I was to do any serious off-roading, I would just get myself another Jeep or maybe a Frontier Pro4x. These rigs like the Mazda can get you a little farther off the beaten path, but people really need to learn the vehicles limits.

 

[KrisZ]

Obligatory

 

[4WD]

Technically, a Subbie is a 4 wheel drive vehicle as it has "symmetrical all wheel drive" which means all 4 wheels get power.

But rubber needs to touch more than steel …
Look at the post I made on Jeep Trail Rated …
I think they are trying to follow this without saying so …
My buddy is pretty hardcore - owns 3 Rubicons and a ZR2 that tows the short/out fitted version … He was showing me pictures of 2 Cherokee TH’s that showed up where the Wrangler snobs least expected them

 

[Nick1994]

From reading Subaru added an "x-trac" function to the Forrester in 2021. It essentially locks the 4 wheels together like 4wd and turns off the traction control. One of the car magazines testing it on a deep snowy trail and couldn't get it stuck. Apparently they Also pulled out other vehicles.

Locking the front and rear differentials together would certainly help, but it's still not a low-range.

 

[4WD]

Locking the front and rear differentials together would certainly help, but it's still not a low-range.

Yep - small units that in 4Lo can be counted on one hand.
Chevy brings that to 3 service duties - 2 are awfully big for trails …
(I only count the Colly ZR2) …

 

[Rhymingmechanic]

Where in Canyonlands was this? The only places I can think of at Canyonlands are the White Rim Road and The Maze. The Maze is supposedly really challenging.

The Needles District has Elephant Hill and some other 4WD roads. This web page uses the phrase "high-clearance, low range four-wheel-drive" at least twice. Vehicle info and footage starts at 1:57 in the NPS video.


Needles Roads

 

[mdoan300]

This happened a couple of years ago when I was out with my tribe in the Moab area.

We were on Long Caynon Road. It was considered basic for us- 2WD most of the way and 4WD in some parts.

Anyway, we got to a family of 4 in a Ford Explorer. They were stuck in the loose gravel trying to go up a mild incline - see pic, the white Ford Explorer with my guy in the FJ Cruiser in front giving him a tug. I don’t know how long they were stuck, but they were lucky we showed up to assist in getting them unstuck.

 

[meep]

Obligatory


View attachment 234823

I kid you not. That could actually be my younger brother, minus the latte. He’s a world class kayaker and climber and lived out of that car when he was stateside for a decade. His outback saw far worse than that and soldiered on. Manual trans 2.5.

 

[meep]

There’s a thing 4WD can do that AWD simply can’t, and that is ensure both axles have equal rpm, at least at the diff. At that brink of losing traction, there’s a moment where one axle will spin and then it’s mostly worthless. True 4x4 prevents that - it can’t spin without the other axle spinning. If the steer axle starts to spin while the rear axle can’t quite muster up, the front of the vehicle goes wherever gravity wants. AWD just can’t fix that.

AWD using a true center diff prove a little better for this. Idk who uses that now… Subaru at least used to on certain transmissions - I had a 97 manual that did, and the center diff was coupled with a pretty stiff limited slip … so it was both a center diff with limited slip coupling in the center diff (not to be confused with a limited slip clutch or a limited slip axle diff). It didn’t have the power or the gearing for any serious off roading, but the system was quite capable on anything that didn’t outstretch first gear or the ground clearance. However, at the edge of climbing up and over a caddywampus brim, 4x4 or bust.

Of course, so many true 4x4 are full-size trucks now. Jeeps are getting bigger. There aren’t as many options with a right-sized 4x4.

 

[svtrit]

I don’t think I’ll be finding out. LP Adventure and HRG make 1.5” lifts for them and some Mazda dealers will even install them.

View attachment 234821View attachment 234822

If I was to do any serious off-roading, I would just get myself another Jeep or maybe a Frontier Pro4x. These rigs like the Mazda can get you a little farther off the beaten path, but people really need to learn the vehicles limits.

You can get lift kits for Nissan Rogues as well. I like my Rouge, but an off-roader it is not…..I’ve pushed a rental Rogue to see how it would do, and was very impressed, but would never take mine anywhere I would depend on 4WD to get out.

 

[4WD]

There’s a thing 4WD can do that AWD simply can’t, and that is ensure both axles have equal rpm, at least at the diff. At that brink of losing traction, there’s a moment where one axle will spin and then it’s mostly worthless. True 4x4 prevents that - it can’t spin without the other axle spinning. If the steer axle starts to spin while the rear axle can’t quite muster up, the front of the vehicle goes wherever gravity wants. AWD just can’t fix that.

AWD using a true center diff prove a little better for this. Idk who uses that now… Subaru at least used to on certain transmissions - I had a 97 manual that did, and the center diff was coupled with a pretty stiff limited slip … so it was both a center diff with limited slip coupling in the center diff (not to be confused with a limited slip clutch or a limited slip axle diff). It didn’t have the power or the gearing for any serious off roading, but the system was quite capable on anything that didn’t outstretch first gear or the ground clearance. However, at the edge of climbing up and over a caddywampus brim, 4x4 or bust.

Of course, so many true 4x4 are full-size trucks now. Jeeps are getting bigger. There aren’t as many options with a right-sized 4x4.

Why I put 3 locks on post #70.
My Tahoe’s can’t lock the front and the rear is “reactive” …
Only my Rubicon can lock n load in advance … or once conditions improve - can unlock the front for better control …

 

[giantkingsquid]

If that's what Subie claims, they're dead wrong. The only way 4wd gets truly equal power to each wheel is front and rear diff lockers engaged. A true, part-time t-case goes without saying.

4wd is not "typically paired with locked differentials."

Very few vehicles come stock with driver selectable lockers, and I'd argue something like a GovLok doesn't count because you can't really predictably and repeatedly control when it locks.

Limited slips can be good but they're NOT lockers.

And while driver selectable REAR lockers have grown in popularity the last ~15 years (Tacoma, Nissan, H3s, SuperDuty FX4 and others), OEMs REALLY shy from true front lockers because inexperienced drivers just don't get it.

By Subaru's definition, there's only 3 or 4 very specific models sold that are 4wd. The Wrangler Rubicon, some of the old H3 models.....what else got OEM front and rear lockers? Not brake-based chattering traction control, but lockers? Maybe a G-wagen? Unimogs? H1 Torsens are a gray area.

Toyota Landcruiser 70 series has them as a factory option, as does Ineos Grenadier.

 

[Bailes1992]

So where would my Duster sit in all this?

It's usually FWD but has a 'locked' centre differential and then a clutch on the rear diff very similar to a Haldex unit. Both front and rear differentials are open however should a wheel spin the traction control will brake that wheel to force the other wheel to receive power.

My car is called a '4WD' by Dacia and the facelift model that came out just a few months after I bought mine is called a '4x4' despite having the exact same running gear.

 

[CarlB]

Not according to Subbie. Here's a link from them that explains the differences... What’s the Difference Between 4WD and AWD?

And here's a little snippet from that link...

"While AWD automatically varies among front, rear, and center differentials depending on needs, 4WD is typically paired with locked differentials. This means that both wheels on an axle are locked together, and all wheels receive power equally. All wheels in 4WD rotate at the same speed, regardless of which one requires extra traction. This can be useful when drivers find themselves stuck in snow, mud, or rocky terrain and need an extra jolt to free their vehicle. This is also true of AWD, which offers added traction by sending power to all wheels in muddy, sandy, or icy conditions."

I personally still have a hard time wrapping my head around the real-world differences. Subaru is known to have the gold standard of AWD systems, and many other vehicle manufactures are quickly catching up. If an AWD system is able to send power to all wheels at the same time and/or can almost instantaneously monitor slip and send more power to the wheels that have the traction, isn't this just as good (or maybe even better)?

I have a 2018 Honda CRV which in my opinion has a very good AWD system, and I believe the newest versions are even better. I have driven mine on top of a frozen lake with snow on it that was higher than the front bumper. The wheels just chewed right through it. I did have to keep moving in order to keep the car from sinking into the snow and getting stuck, but even so I was pretty impressed. I think with a good AWD system (just like in my example) it's way more about ground clearance than it is about having a locked transfer case.

One more thing that I don't completely buy about true 4 wheel drives being better... In the above quote from Subaru it says "All wheels in 4WD rotate at the same speed, regardless of which one requires extra traction". That's just not true. At least not if you don't have a limited slip or full lock-up rear differential. Besides the CRV, I also own an old 4WD Ford Ranger. In 2WD mode, just one wheel will spin if it looses traction. I'm pretty sure in 4WD you will have 3 wheels that have power, but the rear wheel that's in the snow or mud will just spin and be almost useless, while the other rear wheel that actually might be on solid ground will get nothing. This makes it worse than a good AWD system, no?

Locking vs non locking differential would explain your hangups about equal wheel speed.

A Subaru has three differentials. Rear, center and front. The only one that can lock is the center differential on an STi using the DCCD. The front and rear are still LSD and not fully locking at that point. The rest of their lineup are triple LSD.

 

[meep]

So where would my Duster sit in all this?

It's usually FWD but has a 'locked' centre differential and then a clutch on the rear diff very similar to a Haldex unit. Both front and rear differentials are open however should a wheel spin the traction control will brake that wheel to force the other wheel to receive power.

My car is called a '4WD' by Dacia and the facelift model that came out just a few months after I bought mine is called a '4x4' despite having the exact same running gear.

Something here doesn't make sense - you may need to go farther than dealer brochures to figure out what is happening here.

It can't be a lockable center differential if it's a FWD car in normal mode of driving. A center differential means that power is essentially sent to the "middle of the vehicle" and then "splits out" front and rear. A limited slip center differential would then add in that it would enforce some sort of torque transfer to the other axle from one with wheel slip. If the normal mode of operation is FWD, then the thing in the middle is clutch, open/closed, limited slip, and/or lockable. How much torque these clutches can handle varies in reality, and most designs require a constant slippage on the front axle to keep the rear engaged, unless/until a full lock might be commanded from a switch.

There won't be a need for a haldex-like unit if there is a center diff. ??