National Anthem

[onion]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
I could reply and explain it all to you if in fact you would understand and except my explanation. But because of the rules of this forum I more than likely would be banned because patriotism boarders very closely on politics, which is a NO! NO!.


Could you explain it to me via PM? Seriously- I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it.

And yes I agree that this getting dangerously close to political discussion. Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down now that I've offered my $.02 (political discussion IS allowed around here... until somebody offers a view that the mods disagree with).

 

[mechanicx]

Well think of patriotism this way. First in American history you had the patriots and the loyalist. Where would we be without the sacrifices of patriots and nationalist? Probably where we're headed now, increasingly being owned and controlled by foreigners. Of course some people can twist the real meaning of patriotism and corrupt and wrap it around actually unpatriotic endeavors. But that doesn't really have anything to do with true patriotism.

 

[onion]

So those who do right are "true patriots".

And those who do wrong are "unpatriotic".

But they both wave the flag. They both get misty-eyed at the national anthem. They both recite the pledge. They both accuse anybody who disagrees with them of being unpatriotic.

How is one to distinguish without the benefit of hindsight and historical consensus?

I contend that "patriotism" is just a tribal bonding mechanism... often used as a political tool. Expressions of 'patriotism' don't really tell you ANYTHING about a person except perhaps their propensity to be manipulated by jingoisms and platitudes... or their willingness to manipulate others by the same.


But hey, I'm no fan of hokey rituals, and I question what my government does and says (including but not limited to the military). In lots of peoples' minds, that's tantamount to hating america.

Because best I can tell, that's what 'patriots' ARE: people who refuse to question authority and hate/fear those who do. And it helps if they subscribe to a simplified, storybook version of history.

 

[mechanicx]

What I'm saying is most of what you described isn't really patriotism. The definition of patriotism was set by the country's forefathers. They not only questioned the government at the time, they over through it. Our forefathers weren't globalist and would be considered protectionist and nationalists by today's standards. I don't think it is very hard to understand what would be in the nation's best interest. I partially agree with you, true patriotism doesn't much exist anymore. A lot of common sense traditional values and ethics don't exist anymore either.

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
What I'm saying is most of what you described isn't really patriotism. The definition of patriotism was set by the country's forefathers. They not only questioned the government at the time, they over through it. Our forefathers weren't globalist and would be considered protectionist and nationalists by today's standards. I don't think it is very hard to understand what would be in the nation's best interest. I partially agree with you, true patriotism doesn't much exist anymore. A lot of common sense traditional values and ethics don't exist anymore either.


In a sense we are talking about two different things. You are talking about the ideal of 'patriotism' (i.e. what patriotism is SUPPOSED to mean).

I'm talking about my own observations of people who feel strongly about expressions of 'patriotism'. My point is that they rarely if ever live up to the ideal. In fact these people routinely use calls of 'patriotism' to shout down their fellow Americans and promote policies that are outright destructive. So from my point of view, THAT is the net effect of what we call "patriotism" nowadays.

The ideal doesn't mean much to me- IMO actions speak louder than words. And the actions of our modern-day, self-proclaimed 'patriots' don't impress me.

Here's something that might shed some light on the subject: I wonder how the word "patriotism" was used BEFORE the American Revolution.

 

[kb01]

Originally Posted By: onion


You're welcome. I'm truly sorry that those guys died for no good reason.



There's absolutely nothing unpatriotic about dissent. I'm a former Army grunt (11B) and have major issues with foreign policy of the past decade.

You can argue about the politics of military force abroad but when it comes down to it, for a grunt on the ground, it really doesn't matter. The number one goal is to watch your buddy's back. I would hardly classify sacrificing one's self to keep a friend or comrade safe as dying "for no good reason".

 

[Torino]

Originally Posted By: kb01
Originally Posted By: onion


You're welcome. I'm truly sorry that those guys died for no good reason.



There's absolutely nothing unpatriotic about dissent. I'm a former Army grunt (11B) and have major issues with foreign policy of the past decade.

You can argue about the politics of military force abroad but when it comes down to it, for a grunt on the ground, it really doesn't matter. The number one goal is to watch your buddy's back. I would hardly classify sacrificing one's self to keep a friend or comrade safe as dying "for no good reason".
BINGO! John--Las Vegas

 

[hr1940]

I am one of the people that Onion was talking about. I am very proud of our country and the sacrifices that many men and women have made to keep us a free nation and I think our national anthem should be sang correctly. I was privileged to live in a town that had 5 survivors of the Bataan Death March (WW11) and they did not talk about it but everything they did spoke of the pride they had for their country. Not once did I see them fail to salute the flag or get a little misty eyed at the proper singing of the anthem.

Helen

 

[jcwit]

A previous quote

[I'm truly sorry that those guys died for no good reason.]

That statement is debatable but not here on this forum.

 

[morris]

i took a new meaning of the National Anthem when i saw my child hood fiend die in nam by the hands of a commie.

 

[jcwit]

So did I when the protesters spit at me and called me a baby killer and worse as I went to work at the Pentagon in the 60's.

No I didn't run to Canada!

 

[Drew99GT]

From today's Packers/Lions game...