NAPA Platinum vs Fram Ultra

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by Trav

How so, my water pressure is 50 psi.

A water filters sees 100% filter pressure differential - since the outlet is atmospheric

A gear driven positive displacement oil pump will push oil in, through over, or around any filter media.
The filter media won't slow it down - - it either keeps up with the flow, or it fails (holes/tears)

Just playing the devils advocate but my whole house filter is in line 1" in and out so it maintains 50 psi at the filter at all times but as the filter gets dirty flow will reduce because of no bypass valve.


That configuration is closer to what the configuration of an oil filter is in an engine oiling circuit. Just like I already explained, your water system running at max pressure all the time would be analogues to a positive displacement oil pump running in pressure relief. It's a constant, maximum pressure source. As the filter becomes more restrictive, the flow goes down.

But, the clinger in this discussion is that PD oil pumps rarely go into pressure relief except for in the conditions I already explained in this thread. 99+% of the time PD oil pumps on everyday vehicles are not in pressure relief. Therefore, if Filter A has 3 PSI more delta-p at 4000 RPM than Filter B, the pump isn't going to hit pressure relief, and therefore it will be flowing the same oil volume as Filter B. Filter flow restriction is typically a moot point on engine oiling systems with a PD oil pump.


Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by Trav
How so, my water pressure is 50 psi.

A water filters sees 100% filter pressure differential - since the outlet is atmospheric.

True ... and to add, if a filter's outlet was to the atmosphere, the PD oil pump would only generate a few PSI on it's outlet to force all the oil through the filter. If the filter's flow restriction increased by 5 PSI, then the PD pump would just increase it's output pressure by 5 PSI to keep the same flow. PD pumps just keep forcing the same volume until the resistance gets to a point where the pressure relief valve starts shunting oil away from the pump's output.

A PD pump does in fact outlet to atmosphere after going through the various restrictions in the engine and drain back into the sump. Like the house system its only the restrictions in the system that allow it to build pressure.


You missed my point there. Of course the oil in an engine oiling system eventually exits to atmosphere. Anyone knows that.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Really?

https://www.watertechonline.com/positive-displacement-pump-water-services/


And the output pressure (the source pressure to your house) is regulated by a pressure relief valve. That's the same operating condition as if a PD oil pump was running in pressure relief.

From the link:
"A positive displacement pump should not operate against a closed valve on the discharge side of the pump because it has no shutoff head like centrifugal pumps do; a positive displacement pump operating against a closed discharge valve continues to produce flow, and the pressure in the discharge line increases until the piping bursts, the pump is damaged or both. A relief or safety valve on the discharge side of the positive displacement pump is, therefore, necessary. The relief valve can be internal or external."

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Course they do, the cars oil pump runs only with permanently open restrictions, house water supplied by the city or well can have all the restrictions closed. Whats new here?


If the restriction in an oiling system went to infinity (all flow paths closed), the PD would hit max pressure relief pressure and stay there. It would shunt all the output flow back to the sump or pump inlet depending on pump design.

Originally Posted by Trav
The point I was trying to make is be it city, well or a car oiling system they are basically the same aside from the types of restrictions involved, the scale of the system makes no difference.


Car oiling systems don't run at max pressure point all the time, as explained before. The output pump pressure rises and falls based on engine RPM and oil viscosity/temperature.

Originally Posted by Trav
On one house system I have a pump gauge, pre and post filter gauges, because the filter has no bypass I see a pressure drop at the filter outlet when it gets dirty, the pump shuts off sooner because of the restriction.


Even if your water filter had a bypass valve, you would still see a pressure drop across the filter happening until the point where the bypass valve opens. But what's different in your water system vs an engine oiling system is your water system is always at max source pressure - just like if a PD pump in a car was always running in pressure relief - which hardly ever happens except under rare conditions as explained earlier.

Originally Posted by Trav
The point is I am not convinced a high efficiency filter is not going into bypass more often when dirty (because in the engine the pump cannot be shut off if a out of design restriction is met) than one with better flow characteristics when subjected to the same amount of contamination.


It all depends on the flow characteristics of the filter media, and the amount of media in the element. You can't make a general statement like that without some real flow test data to verity it. And of course, every oil filter made will get closer to going into bypass as it loads up - that's just common logic.

One part of ISO 4548-12 is to measure the efficiency while also measuring the delta-p and holding capacity. They are all interconnected to each other. A full synthetic filter can hold more debris while at the same time being highly efficient and having a large holding capacity. All of those performance parameters should tell you something ... way more than having just a "feeling" on filter's performance by looking at it. The ISO 4548-12 test has been used for the last 20 years by the filter industry for a reason.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

One part of ISO 4548-12 is to measure the efficiency while also measuring the delta-p and holding capacity. They are all interconnected to each other. .


I would like to know "at what flow rate"

I think Jay Buckley said the XG8A could flow 20 GPM.

Does ISO 4548-12 test a filter that size for efficiency at max flow rate, or at something like 5 GPM instead? Or does it vary?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix

One part of ISO 4548-12 is to measure the efficiency while also measuring the delta-p and holding capacity. They are all interconnected to each other. .

I would like to know "at what flow rate"

I think Jay Buckley said the XG8A could flow 20 GPM.

Does ISO 4548-12 test a filter that size for efficiency at max flow rate, or at something like 5 GPM instead? Or does it vary?


Here are quotes from ISO 4548-12. In a nutshell (blue text below), the test procedure defines the contamination rate into the oil, the flow rate testing range and the oil viscosity required. The test is done with oil viscosity of 15 mm2/s ±1mm2/s which most likely simulates typical hot oil viscosity in an engine.

"This test is intended for application to filter elements having a rated flow between 4 l/min and 600 l/min and with an efficiency of less than 99 % at a particle size greater than 10 microns."

"Contaminant injection circuit: Using 10 mg/l as the base upstream gravimetric level."

"Circulate the fluid in the filter test circuit at the rated flow and at the stabilized test temperature ±2°C."

"Install the filter element in its housing and subject the assembly to the flow rate required by the purchaser, and to the temperature required to maintain an oil viscosity of 15 mm2/s ±1mm2/s."

4 l/min = 1.06 GPM
600 l/min = 158.5 GPM
So this test machine is capable of testing a very large range of filter sizes at their rated flows.

Item #3 says to circulate the fluid in the filter test circuit "at the rated flow".

Item #4 says to "subject the assembly to the flow rate required by the purchaser".

So these statements are saying it's up to the filter manufacturer to tell the people doing the IOS 4548-12 test what the "rated flow" is of the filter and to do the test with that amount of flow. I would think "rated flow" is the maximum the manufacturer says the filter will flow in real use ... but hard to say how that is defined.

 

[ZeeOSix]

To add to the above post ... 15 mm^2/s is basically the viscosity of 40 weight oil at 100C (212F).

Kinematic viscosity are units of mm^2/s = cSt.

 

[Job]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Particles of silica etc don't come in one micron accuracy spheres into an engine, like the graphs and numbers show. Hanging one's hat on 20 versus 35 or 30, or 10 versus 15, whatever, from a table doesn't make sense when particles look like potatoes and slivers. They aren't that round. Maybe someone better can explain how they do it. Using highly graded test dust? We don't get that in our air intake.


Doesn't matter ... the ISO 4548-12 efficiency test is still an apples to apples comparison of filter efficiency under the same test conditions. We've had these same discussions under other names before.


You're the man. You have all the answers. You are always right.

 

[ZeeOSix]

More so than just spewing out crap with no real data or info to back stuff up.

 

[Pinoak]

The Napa at $5 is a super great deal. Ain't nothing about the ultra gonna prove it's worth 2x as much.

 

[Garak]

Price is often a function of location. At NAPA Canada, the Platinum is cheaper than the Gold for my G37, which is totally bizarre. The Platinum's price is again, oddly enough, within striking range of the Ultra. Ordinarily, the NAPA Golds are too expensive for my blood, since I can get the Wix for significantly cheaper. Now, the reverse happens if I try for the Wix XP. They are through the roof, and some examples are double the price of the Fram Ultra, and well over double that of the Platinum.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Pinoak
The Napa at $5 is a super great deal. Ain't nothing about the ultra gonna prove it's worth 2x as much.


True ... if you don't care about efficiency.

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Pinoak
The Napa at $5 is a super great deal. Ain't nothing about the ultra gonna prove it's worth 2x as much.


True ... if you don't care about efficiency.

Efficient enough unless you got rocks in your oil

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Malo83
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Pinoak
The Napa at $5 is a super great deal. Ain't nothing about the ultra gonna prove it's worth 2x as much.

True ... if you don't care about efficiency.

Efficient enough unless when you got rocks in your oil

Fixed it for ya.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix


You missed my point there. Of course the oil in an engine oiling system eventually exits to atmosphere. Anyone knows that.


Somebody obviously doesn't.

Quote
A water filters sees 100% filter pressure differential - since the outlet is atmospheric


Of course both an engines oiling system and house water circuit do, its only a matter of restrictions in the system. Both systems are variable, the engine by a change of clearances due to temperature and the house by physically opening the restriction in the form of a tap.
You seem to be missing my point. My house pump can produce significantly more than 50 psi psi but the shutoff is set at 50.

When I see 40 psi after the filter the inlet still has 50 psi and the pump shuts down because the filter itself has no relief, my point is how is a car engine filter any different?
Yes it has a relief to keep oil flowing to critical parts but it is no longer filtering.
The first filter in the hose system is 20 micron to filter the large particles so it doesn't overburden the second which is 5 micron with carbon which is obviously capturing more small particles but it also looses pressure on the outlet sooner and as a consequence reduces flow.

This would indicate that a filter that filters to small of a particle is definitely going to go into bypass sooner than one that allows larger particles and once that happens unfiltered oil will be going through the engine.
Test are all well and good but we see all the time how that works out in the real world with all sorts of products.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
You missed my point there. Of course the oil in an engine oiling system eventually exits to atmosphere. Anyone knows that.
Somebody obviously doesn't.


You've missed the point of most of my posts, and missed understanding the concept that the only time an oil filter's restriction in a PD oil pump system matters is when the pump is in pressure relief ... which is hardly ever except under some rare conditions.

Any time the PD oil pump is not in pressure relief (which is 99+% of the time), then the flow through the filter and engine is the same (at the same engine RPM and oil viscosity/temperature of course), because every ounce of oil coming out the of the pump is still being forced down stream to the filter & engine. If you can't understand that then you'll never understand a PD oiling system in an engine. If Filters A thru Z all have a different delta-p at 4000 RPM and with the same 5w30 oil, the flow going through all of them will be the same if the PD is not in pressure relief. So there is no such thing as the misnomer of "flow over filtration" when it comes to oil filters on an engine.

So do you really think a car's oiling system always works the same way as the water system in your house? You really think that the flow through an oil filter that's feed by a PD oil pump with a pressure relief valve is effected by the filter's restrictiveness at all times in the same way as the filter in your house's water system running at a constant supply pressure? If so, you have yet another misconception to unravel.

Originally Posted by Trav
My house pump can produce significantly more than 50 psi psi but the shutoff is set at 50.

When I see 40 psi after the filter the inlet still has 50 psi and the pump shuts down because the filter itself has no relief, my point is how is a car engine filter any different?


So your water system's pressure source essentially operates at a max 50 psi of pressure, just like a PD pump would be operating at max pressure if in a pressure relief condition. No, your pump shuts down at 50 psi because that's the maximum supply pressure it's been set to operate at - regardless of what's happening down stream. It has nothing to do with the filter having a bypass valve or not. If the filter happened to have a 15 psi bypass valve, then the pump would still operate at 50 psi and the filter outlet would be at 40 psi (a 10 psi delta-p across the filter), and the bypass valve would never open.

At this point, trying to make analogies between your house water system and an engine's oiling system is going into the realm of obtuseness.

 

[Trav]

I understand perfectly well how it works you it seems are the one who doesn't get it. My only point and using the the house filter system example is it proves a dirty filter lowers flow when the pump is operating at full pressure, its that simple. Sure I could change the setting to 90 psi but there would still be lower flow and pressure at the outlet.
There is a reason they don't use low micron filters like those in a bypass system in the engine main oiling system, using your theory the PD pump will just pick up the pressure and flow to accommodate it and overcome the resistance but in reality the engine would starve and fail with no bypass valve.

You said..

Quote
So there is no such thing as the misnomer of "flow over filtration" when it comes to oil filters on an engine.


Really?

Originally Posted by Mobil
Many racing oil filters are engineered to provide high levels of oil flow with low restriction. Certain racing oil filters engineered for use in endurance applications (for example, 12- or 24-hour races) contain a different media that is designed to trap smaller contaminants.


https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car...t-types-of-oil-filters-and-how-they-work

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
I understand perfectly well how it works you it seems are the one who doesn't get it. My only point and using the the house filter system example is it proves a dirty filter lowers flow when the pump is operating at full pressure, its that simple.


Only in a system like your house when the supply pressure is always running at a constant supply pressure. That only happens in an engine oiling system with a PD in very rare cases when the pump hit's pressure relief ... that's the part you obviously fail to grasp.

Originally Posted by Trav
Sure I could change the setting to 90 psi but there would still be lower flow and pressure at the outlet.


What are you talking about? If you raised the supply pressure from 50 to 90 psi the flow is going to increase accordingly. More indication you're understanding of pressure and flow is misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Trav
There is a reason they don't use low micron filters like those in a bypass system in the engine main oiling system, using your theory the PD pump will just pick up the pressure and flow to accommodate it and overcome the resistance but in reality the engine would starve and fail with no bypass valve.


Of course you couldn't use a 98% @ 2u bypass filter as a full-flow oil filter unless you had a TON of surface area to decrease the dealt-p, or an oil pump that pressure relieved at 200 PSI. In that case, the PD oil pump certainly would "overcome the resistance", just like PD pumps do with normal spin-on oil filters.

Like said ... the "flow over filtration" on everyday passengers cars is a misnomer used by people who really don't understand how a PD oiling system works on an engine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
You said..

Quote
So there is no such thing as the misnomer of "flow over filtration" when it comes to oil filters on an engine.

Really?

Originally Posted by Mobil
Many racing oil filters are engineered to provide high levels of oil flow with low restriction. Certain racing oil filters engineered for use in endurance applications (for example, 12- or 24-hour races) contain a different media that is designed to trap smaller contaminants.


https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car...t-types-of-oil-filters-and-how-they-work


Again, you're really not following along and comprehending the discussion. Racing conditions where the engine is near redline all day long, and where the oil pump may be in pressure relief because of high engine RPM and use of thicker racing oil is the only time that flow could be affected because the oil pump is in a constant supply pressure mode - aka, in pressure relief. One way racers ensure the flow remains high is to raise the PD pump pressure relief setting so the pump never hits pressure relief to ensure all the oil leaving the pump goes through the filter & engine.

For everyday passenger cars that hardly EVER hit pump pressure relief (except under rare use conditions - like race car type of conditions, or bonehead moves like high revs right after a cold start), there is no such thing as "flow over filtration" because the flow will be the same when the pump in NOT in pressure relief, which is 99+% of the time. Other people understand this scenario, it's pretty simple to understand.

 

[Trav]

Of course if I raise the pressure the flow and pressure will increase but the difference in flow and psi at the outlet will be the same.
Hey you said it and you are proved wrong.

Quote
So there is no such thing as the misnomer of "flow over filtration" when it comes to oil filters on an engine.


That is a clear statement with no proviso. You are wrong and pointing that out is not cherry picking. On this board Toyota has often been called out for preferring flow over filtration.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Here's a simple question for you Trav.

Do you think a car with a PD set to relieve at 90 PSI going down the road at 2000 RPM with hot 5w30 oil in the sump and creating 40 PSI oil pressure, and using an oil filter with 5 PSI of delta-p under those conditions is allowing more oil to flow through the engine than if the oil filter had 10 PSI of delta-p?