NAPA Platinum vs Fram Ultra

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Quote
Flow through an oil filter will not be reduced if the PD oil pump is not in pressure relief, regardless of how restrictive or clogged the filter is. That's the whole key to this discussion.

That is the problem and where I disagree, the pump pressure relief functions when the filter is flowing properly and the oil is cold and thick and the rpm's are high creating over pressure in the system, it gradually bleeds off excess pressure. The filter bypass operates when pressure at the filter element increases due to contamination and can no longer full flow through the filter.


Yes, the filter bypass valve will open any time the delta-p across the filter is higher than the bypass valve setting - no brainer, we agree. But the filter bypass valve operates totally independent of the pump pressure relief valve.

Again, if the PD pump is not in pressure relief then it's still forcing all the oil from it's output side through the filter and engine. How can it not? That's just how PD pumps work.

If the pump is not in pressure relief then were does all the pump output flow go? You do realize that a PD pump output pressure will go sky high if unregulated because it literally forces/jams the oil downstream. Some of these pumps are capable of 300+ PSI if unregulated.

Originally Posted by Trav
If the pump was not in relief and only putting out eg 30 psi but has a 90 psi relief and the filter was clogged to the point it cannot full flow the bypass in the filter will open as soon as the bypass pressure is reached. The pump pressure relief will not be reached.


True ... but if the pump is not in pressure relief (which you say it isn't in your example), then the total flow has not decreased. Only the filter bypass valve has opened, but the total flow through the filler and oiling system is still the same. That is the key to the whole discussion. Any time the pump is NOT in pressure relief, then 100% of the flow goes through the filter and engine. Where else would it go?

 

[Trav]

No, the total flow is still going through the system but not the filter. It is not the same. If for some wild reason the galley got plugged then there would be a real problem if the pump did not have a pressure relief, it would blow the filter can up.
Two relief valves one 90 psi at the pump and one 20 at the filter in the form of bypass for example the 20 will open long before the 90 if the filter is clogged, the oil will not flow through the filter at full flow even if pump relief pressure is not reached, it will bypass at the filter first.

If the filter is not contaminated to the point and still has flow overall over pressure in the system not just the filter would be required to trip the pump relief.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
No, the total flow is still going through the system but not the filter. It is not the same.


You missed the point again. All 100% of the flow is still going through the "oil filter", regardless if the filter is in bypass or not. I didn't say all the flow is going "through the media" ... I said "through the filter" which mean flow through the filter as an assembly (ie, flow in and out of the base plate). And all flow that goes through the filter then goes through the engine oiling system.

The point is, if the PD is not in pressure relief than 100% of its output flow must go through the oil filter and oiling system. I've already made it quite clear on how a filter bypass valve works.

Do you, or do you not, believe that when the PD is not in pressure relief that all 100% of its output flow must go through the filter can and oiling system?

Originally Posted by Trav
Two relief valves one 90 psi at the pump and one 20 at the filter in the form of bypass for example the 20 will open long before the 90 if the filter is clogged, the oil will not flow through the filter at full flow even if pump relief pressure is not reached, it will bypass at the filter first.


If the pump is not in pressure relief, then all the oil certainly will flow through the filter assembly, regardless if the filter is in bypass or not (forget about the filter bypass valve). This is the point you seem to be missing.

As I mentioned before, it's quite possible for the oil pump to hit pressure relief before the oil filter goes into bypass. It all depends on the total system design of the oiling system and oil filter.

Example, using your numbers:
Pump relief valve = 90 psi. Filter bypass = 20 psi.
Engine at 5000 RPM with xyz viscosity oil.
Oil pressure with no filter in the system (ie, only the oiling system pressure) = 80 psi.
Delta-p across the filter = 12 psi.
Oil pump hit the 90 psi pressure relief when filter delta-p was at 10 psi ... lower than the 20 psi filter bypass valve setting, therefore all oil going into the filter flowed through the media.

On a side note, all these new oil filters with a 23+ bypass valve setting being used on older oiling systems without a pretty high pump relief pressure valve setting could certainly cause the pump to hit pressure relief before the filter hits bypass if the filter delta-p gets that high. Just something to think about.

Originally Posted by Trav
If the filter is not contaminated to the point and still has flow overall over pressure in the system not just the filter would be required to trip the pump relief.


The only thing that "trips the pump relief" is total downstream flow resistance. If you put 10 different oil filters on an engine of varying flow resistance, and none of them caused the oil pump to hit pressure relief for whatever reason, then the flow going out the pump into the filter, and then into the engine would all be the same under the same operating conditions (RPM, viscosity, temperature), This is where "flow over filtration" is a misunderstood parroted misnomer by people who don't fully understand the oiling system operation.

 

[Trav]

Now you are grasping at straws, of course it goes through the filter can but not the media as there is no alternative path to the oil galley. Now you are just getting insulting.

Originally Posted by zo6
The only thing that "trips the pump relief" is total downstream flow resistance


Originally Posted by trav
If the filter is not contaminated to the point and still has flow overall over pressure in the system not just the filter would be required to trip the pump relief.


Little reading comprehension problem there Z or you don't bother to read what I write and just keep ranting the same old thing..
Give it a rest man, this is getting boring.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted by Trav
Now you are grasping at straws, of course it goes through the filter can but not the media as there is no alternative path to the oil galley. Now you are just getting insulting.

Originally Posted by zo6
The only thing that "trips the pump relief" is total downstream flow resistance


Originally Posted by trav
If the filter is not contaminated to the point and still has flow overall over pressure in the system not just the filter would be required to trip the pump relief.


Little reading comprehension problem there Z or you don't bother to read what I write and just keep ranting the same old thing..
Give it a rest man, this is getting boring.


A little posting it in the right category would even work better.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Now you are grasping at straws, of course it goes through the filter can but not the media as there is no alternative path to the oil galley. Now you are just getting insulting.


No, I'm clarifying terminology. When I say "filter" I mean filter as in filter can assembly, not media. If I meant media, I'd make that clear. I've explained things in detail, yet you don't seem to get a lot of what's said.

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by zo6
The only thing that "trips the pump relief" is total downstream flow resistance

Originally Posted by trav
If the filter is not contaminated to the point and still has flow overall over pressure in the system not just the filter would be required to trip the pump relief.


Little reading comprehension problem there Z or you don't bother to read what I write and just keep ranting the same old thing..
Give it a rest man, this is getting boring.


Yeah, but you failed to read the rest of my reply to that, the point I was actually making.

Let's start from grass roots ... read the next post.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Trev - Do you, or do you not, believe that when the PD oil pump is not in pressure relief that all 100% of its output flow must go through the filter can assembly and oiling system?

Simple yes or no.

 

[Trav]

Of course it does, where else should it go, across the windshield and back down into the fill cap.
There is your out, take it.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by JohnnyJohnson


A little posting it in the right category would even work better.


Meaning what?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Trav
Of course it does, where else should it go, across the windshield and back down into the fill cap.
There is your out, take it.


It's not an out ... it just shows that oil filter flow resistance does not reduce oil flow if the oil pump is not in pressure relief - which very rarely happens. So there really is no such thing as "flow over filtration" when it comes to everyday passenger cars that are not driving around at redline with thick oil and the oil pump in pressure relief. Glad you finally realized it.

 

[Trav]

 

[ZeeOSix]

LOL, maybe you really don't get it ... guess I might have jump to conclusions.

 

[Pinoak]

Oh, I just hope the filter expert will post another set of graphs! It's just too hard to grasp the concept that more restriction= reduced flow and less restriction= increased flow. A graph would surely make it so we could more easily understand such a difficult concept

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Pinoak
Oh, I just hope the filter expert will post another set of graphs! It's just too hard to grasp the concept that more restriction= reduced flow and less restriction= increased flow. A graph would surely make it so we could more easily understand such a difficult concept

Do you want graphs with and without the pump in pressure relief? ... LoL

But actually, it seems hard for people to grasp how the an engine oiling system operates in conjunction with an oil filter when a PD oil pump is involved. That's what the discussion is about.

Do you think an oil filter with more flow resistance operating at the same engine conditions will decrease oil flow to the engine if the oil pump is not in pressure relief?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
LOL, maybe you really don't get it ... guess I might have jump to conclusions.

I get it perfectly well, but that's okay jump wherever you like, don't let me stop you.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I really doubt it, but I guess it's OK if you live with misconceptions about oiling systems and oil filters ... you aren't alone in that department.

 

[dlundblad]

I'd use both interchangeably as I don't think efficiency matters.

 

[wemay]

I'd use either without a second thought.

Some members here believe bitog is about always finding and using the "best", and that's fine. But there's no monopoly on what bitog is about. Other members are of the belief you come here to find the least expensive alternative that meets specs and maximize the usage time. Again, all good. Most of us fall in the middle.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by dlundblad
I'd use both interchangeably as I don't think efficiency matters.




Or at least as much as some would like you to believe. Its hard to separate the marketing chaff from real world performance.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted by Trav
Originally Posted by dlundblad
I'd use both interchangeably as I don't think efficiency matters.




Or at least as much as some would like you to believe. Its hard to separate the marketing chaff from real world performance.


True. Toyota OE filters have poor efficiency. No issues whatsoever.