Winter? what is Winter driving?
MUST I get rid of summer tires?
- Thread starter 97tbird
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Originally Posted By: rpn453
.........I'd be willing to give summer tires a try for occasional use in cool weather. I'd really like to see some data on summer tire performance in dry/wet cool weather compared to a typical OE all-season.
Summer tires (and UHPAS) do not necessarily lose major amounts of traction at low temperatures:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests
http://www.zr.ru/a/16286 (use google translate. Take a close look at the graph and chart).
I think you are safe with "average" summer tires. But not so safe with the "ultra high performance" summer tires.
Also see this discussion:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/change-winter-tires-145259.html
.........I'd be willing to give summer tires a try for occasional use in cool weather. I'd really like to see some data on summer tire performance in dry/wet cool weather compared to a typical OE all-season.
Summer tires (and UHPAS) do not necessarily lose major amounts of traction at low temperatures:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests
http://www.zr.ru/a/16286 (use google translate. Take a close look at the graph and chart).
I think you are safe with "average" summer tires. But not so safe with the "ultra high performance" summer tires.
Also see this discussion:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/change-winter-tires-145259.html
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Summer tires (and UHPAS) do not necessarily lose major amounts of traction at low temperatures:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests
http://www.zr.ru/a/16286 (use google translate. Take a close look at the graph and chart).
I think you are safe with "average" summer tires. But not so safe with the "ultra high performance" summer tires.
Also see this discussion:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/change-winter-tires-145259.html
Good links, thanks. I forgot about that C&D test. It's too bad they didn't put a summer tire in the mix!
In that test and in the Russian test, the summer and all-season tires easily outperformed the winter tires down to -5C in the absence of ice and snow. So it really isn't an issue of the rubber being too hard for good traction on pavement, it's a lack of siping to help avoid building a layer of ice on the tire under certain conditions. The Russian site sort of explains this.
Originally Posted By: Russian Site
At a temperature close to zero (from the "plus"), grip summer tires are still pretty high. . . A temperature of +7 ° C tire manufacturers indicate a margin to avoid a likely meeting with icing . . . As a rule, the better they behave on snow and ice, the less tenacious on the asphalt . . . The frost below -5 ° C it is particularly smooth, very crafty: when braking instantly "sweats" in the contact patch, and a thin layer of moisture on the cold, immediately turns into an icy crust. So that when the frost is strongly recommended to replace tires for the winter, even if the road is absolutely clean from snow and ice. On roads with rough asphalt, this effect is less pronounced.
Translated Link
It seems like it really would be best to get some high performance all-seasons on that BMW if it will be used below freezing temperatures, but you can drive on anything if you're careful and aware of the road conditions.
That Legacy site looks like a good forum. I didn't read through the whole thread yet, but I will.
Summer tires (and UHPAS) do not necessarily lose major amounts of traction at low temperatures:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests
http://www.zr.ru/a/16286 (use google translate. Take a close look at the graph and chart).
I think you are safe with "average" summer tires. But not so safe with the "ultra high performance" summer tires.
Also see this discussion:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/change-winter-tires-145259.html
Good links, thanks. I forgot about that C&D test. It's too bad they didn't put a summer tire in the mix!
In that test and in the Russian test, the summer and all-season tires easily outperformed the winter tires down to -5C in the absence of ice and snow. So it really isn't an issue of the rubber being too hard for good traction on pavement, it's a lack of siping to help avoid building a layer of ice on the tire under certain conditions. The Russian site sort of explains this.
Originally Posted By: Russian Site
At a temperature close to zero (from the "plus"), grip summer tires are still pretty high. . . A temperature of +7 ° C tire manufacturers indicate a margin to avoid a likely meeting with icing . . . As a rule, the better they behave on snow and ice, the less tenacious on the asphalt . . . The frost below -5 ° C it is particularly smooth, very crafty: when braking instantly "sweats" in the contact patch, and a thin layer of moisture on the cold, immediately turns into an icy crust. So that when the frost is strongly recommended to replace tires for the winter, even if the road is absolutely clean from snow and ice. On roads with rough asphalt, this effect is less pronounced.
Translated Link
It seems like it really would be best to get some high performance all-seasons on that BMW if it will be used below freezing temperatures, but you can drive on anything if you're careful and aware of the road conditions.
That Legacy site looks like a good forum. I didn't read through the whole thread yet, but I will.
Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Provided that I won't drive in snow, MUST I change my summer tires for driving during the winter, just due to the low temperatures?
(I do have another vehicle that I will be using in snowy conditions, but would like to drive the BMW (with summer tires) when there's no snow/ice at least a few times during the winter...)
...or can I get by with them, as they still have quite a bit of miles left on them, and just change to All-seasons in spring/winter of 2011?
I drove my WRX on Fuzion ZRi tires ("Ultra High Performance Summer" according to TireRack) an entire winter and even drove them in light snow and slush and they actually did BETTER than the original Potenza RE92A's that came on the car.
Would I do it again? Knowing what I know now (that my ContiExtremContact DWS's are great in the snow) not a chance.
If I had a set on my car would I change them out for the upcoming winter if I had something else I could drive in the snow? Not a chance.
Provided that I won't drive in snow, MUST I change my summer tires for driving during the winter, just due to the low temperatures?
(I do have another vehicle that I will be using in snowy conditions, but would like to drive the BMW (with summer tires) when there's no snow/ice at least a few times during the winter...)
...or can I get by with them, as they still have quite a bit of miles left on them, and just change to All-seasons in spring/winter of 2011?
I drove my WRX on Fuzion ZRi tires ("Ultra High Performance Summer" according to TireRack) an entire winter and even drove them in light snow and slush and they actually did BETTER than the original Potenza RE92A's that came on the car.
Would I do it again? Knowing what I know now (that my ContiExtremContact DWS's are great in the snow) not a chance.
If I had a set on my car would I change them out for the upcoming winter if I had something else I could drive in the snow? Not a chance.
From my observations in low temps with summer tires you've got a couple of factors to look at:
1/ reduction in dry traction
2/ reduction in wet traction
3/ increase in the difference between static and dynamic friction - in plain lingo more sudden "break away"
Depending on the tire in question these factors will vary.
Getting down around freezing previous sets of Toyo T1-S and T1R tires were a little scary in the wet. You'd seem to have quite a bit of traction when driving normally but they would break away suddenly and you'd have very little grip with which to make a recovery. One of the greatest things about top-tier summer performance tires is gradual and controlled break-away and the ability to carry some slip angle - do not count on this in the cold. My Michelin PS2s suffer from this a lot less.
I've also driven on Bridgestone S-02 Pole Positions down to about -7C in the dry before. It was kind of a "left with no choice situation" where I dropped a summer car off to my mechanic for some pre-storage work and it was there for days longer than originally thought and a sharp cold front came through. I didn't fly off the road, but they were noisier when handling and in general they seemed to wear faster in cold weather.
I know it isn't your thread title but: If you are driving it because you want to - keep it in the dry and don't push too hard at least until you know what to expect.
If you're driving it because you think that's better for the car than storage - think again. There's been lots of threads here about storage and I used to store a summer car. You're better off putting it away properly (fresh oil change, stabilized fuel, fogging oil in the cylinders, battery removed and/or on a trickle charger, tires overpressurized and chocked, p-brake not set, waxed, covered) and *leaving it alone* until spring returns. All of this "run it for 10 minutes every week" stuff you hear some people say does more harm than good. (Just like a whole lot of other crazy wive's tales that get passed around about car care).
All you need is one unexpected little patch of ice under an overpass or in the middle of a turn and your day will get very bad very quickly.
1/ reduction in dry traction
2/ reduction in wet traction
3/ increase in the difference between static and dynamic friction - in plain lingo more sudden "break away"
Depending on the tire in question these factors will vary.
Getting down around freezing previous sets of Toyo T1-S and T1R tires were a little scary in the wet. You'd seem to have quite a bit of traction when driving normally but they would break away suddenly and you'd have very little grip with which to make a recovery. One of the greatest things about top-tier summer performance tires is gradual and controlled break-away and the ability to carry some slip angle - do not count on this in the cold. My Michelin PS2s suffer from this a lot less.
I've also driven on Bridgestone S-02 Pole Positions down to about -7C in the dry before. It was kind of a "left with no choice situation" where I dropped a summer car off to my mechanic for some pre-storage work and it was there for days longer than originally thought and a sharp cold front came through. I didn't fly off the road, but they were noisier when handling and in general they seemed to wear faster in cold weather.
I know it isn't your thread title but: If you are driving it because you want to - keep it in the dry and don't push too hard at least until you know what to expect.
If you're driving it because you think that's better for the car than storage - think again. There's been lots of threads here about storage and I used to store a summer car. You're better off putting it away properly (fresh oil change, stabilized fuel, fogging oil in the cylinders, battery removed and/or on a trickle charger, tires overpressurized and chocked, p-brake not set, waxed, covered) and *leaving it alone* until spring returns. All of this "run it for 10 minutes every week" stuff you hear some people say does more harm than good. (Just like a whole lot of other crazy wive's tales that get passed around about car care).
All you need is one unexpected little patch of ice under an overpass or in the middle of a turn and your day will get very bad very quickly.
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Hard to say how your summer tires will do in cold dry pavement (other than you will have reduced traction, but whether that reaches an unacceptable point or not is hard to say). I know the often stated temperature for all seasons to start becoming ineffective is 7C (45F). Don't know what the temperature is for dedicated summer tires. That said, I think it boils down to the individual tire model as to how cold it can go.
As an example of all seasons, around 5C or so, my OEM Michelin Energy LX4's could very easily break loose on moderate acceleration from a stop. Not enough to make me feel the need to change them out - it would take snow or significant ice in the weather forecast for me to do that. Just before the first snow, I put on my winter Altimax Arctics. It's warmed up recently, some days reaching 12C (54F). Where the all seasons would have broken loose, it's been uneventful with the winters.
Couldn't hurt to try on your BMW. As the temperature drops, see where you notice the changes. If you find yourself reaching an unacceptable limit, note that temperature, and you shouldn't go lower than that with those tires. Maybe you're good down to 0F, or maybe only to 40F. As long as it cools off gradually, you should be able to see for yourself at what point the tires become [censored].
As an example of all seasons, around 5C or so, my OEM Michelin Energy LX4's could very easily break loose on moderate acceleration from a stop. Not enough to make me feel the need to change them out - it would take snow or significant ice in the weather forecast for me to do that. Just before the first snow, I put on my winter Altimax Arctics. It's warmed up recently, some days reaching 12C (54F). Where the all seasons would have broken loose, it's been uneventful with the winters.
Couldn't hurt to try on your BMW. As the temperature drops, see where you notice the changes. If you find yourself reaching an unacceptable limit, note that temperature, and you shouldn't go lower than that with those tires. Maybe you're good down to 0F, or maybe only to 40F. As long as it cools off gradually, you should be able to see for yourself at what point the tires become [censored].
Originally Posted By: JRed
I drove my WRX on Fuzion ZRi tires ("Ultra High Performance Summer" according to TireRack) an entire winter and even drove them in light snow and slush and they actually did BETTER than the original Potenza RE92A's that came on the car.
If they are anything like the infamous RE92, then it really doesn't take much to perform better than them. A wheelbarrow tire probably has better traction than those things.
I drove my WRX on Fuzion ZRi tires ("Ultra High Performance Summer" according to TireRack) an entire winter and even drove them in light snow and slush and they actually did BETTER than the original Potenza RE92A's that came on the car.
If they are anything like the infamous RE92, then it really doesn't take much to perform better than them. A wheelbarrow tire probably has better traction than those things.
Thanks for all the comments - I waited before updating, because I wanted to see how my summer performance tires do in cold temps.
we have had several mornings when the temps had dropped to 32-27 Degrees. No ice/snow, just cold.
The summer tires were definitely hard(er) for the 1st 10-15 min. of driving, but after that they behaved like they always do, as if in normal temps. I didn't notice any dangerous behavior or anything like that - I drove cautiously for the 1st 10-15 min when the temps were that low...after that I drove them as usual, speeds 65-75 mph, and they performed like usual.
So I think what I am going to do is:
Make the Tbird my main car for wintry/icey/.snow days (going to put Altimax Arctics on it), and keep using the BMW only for days where there's no ice/snow, etc. From the past few week's experience, I am pretty sure that, as long as there's no ice/snow, cold temps doesn't change their behavior much, except for the initial hardness, for which I will watch out.
The reason I didn't want to change them just now to All season performance tires is that these summer tires still have some life left and i just want to keep using them through next fall, and THEN swap them out to all-seasons...They will be safer even in light snow perhaps, and also result in a bit of a more pliable ride.
we have had several mornings when the temps had dropped to 32-27 Degrees. No ice/snow, just cold.
The summer tires were definitely hard(er) for the 1st 10-15 min. of driving, but after that they behaved like they always do, as if in normal temps. I didn't notice any dangerous behavior or anything like that - I drove cautiously for the 1st 10-15 min when the temps were that low...after that I drove them as usual, speeds 65-75 mph, and they performed like usual.
So I think what I am going to do is:
Make the Tbird my main car for wintry/icey/.snow days (going to put Altimax Arctics on it), and keep using the BMW only for days where there's no ice/snow, etc. From the past few week's experience, I am pretty sure that, as long as there's no ice/snow, cold temps doesn't change their behavior much, except for the initial hardness, for which I will watch out.
The reason I didn't want to change them just now to All season performance tires is that these summer tires still have some life left and i just want to keep using them through next fall, and THEN swap them out to all-seasons...They will be safer even in light snow perhaps, and also result in a bit of a more pliable ride.
Sounds like a plan.
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