Motor Oil 106

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
10,331
Location
MI
Mr AEHaas

If I wish to compare oils myself to make an informed decision about "least thickening after engine shutdown", which specification numbers do I compare? I.E - I wish to compare dino 5W30 Pennzoil, Motorcraft, and Chevron for least thickening.

Thank you.
 
If while on the road you are forced to add oil there are rules. Let us say for example that our engine has synthetic Mobil One 0W-30.
You could save a lot of typing if you just carry an extra quart or two in your ferrari. If it will not fit they sell many colors of duck tape that may match the car color and just strap them on the spoiler.
 
The only numbers we can look at are minimum pumping temperatures and pour points. I use these numbers for my basis. In general they will also have lower viscosities at 104 F but still make grade at 212 and 302 F.

aehaas

If anybody knows how I can post JPEGs of data I have a lot of spec's collected in a way that makes numbers easy to compare.
 
My Ferrari 575 Maranello is a front engine car with a huge trunk that can fit a large golf bag of clubs and more. I currently have about 3,500 miles (6k total) on my current fill of Mobil One 0W-20 with no loss of oil level. It has 3.5 percent fuel and this I accept.

aehaas

Yellow tape may however be useful for my wife's Murcielago.

[ January 23, 2005, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: AEHaas ]
 
lol.gif
grin.gif
cheers.gif
 
quote:

I personally use Mobil 1, 0W-20 in the 575 Maranello

You don't think the 0w-20 would be too thin for a Ferrari? What oil does that car call for?

Also, you can mix any grad of Mobil 1. Only bad side is you won't know what viscosity your running.

What data do you have on these oils and why do you recommend them? Oil analysis?
dunno.gif
 
Go to this site to see the oil data I have collected in part:

http://www.lamborghini-talk.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=980


My analysis:

Oil analysis for 2003 Ferrari 575 Maranello and 2004 Ford Expedition:

The Ferrari was delivered from Ferrari of North America (FNA) with Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30. At 775 miles on 23 May 2003 the oil was changed to 0W-30 Mobil 1. At 2,250 miles on 14 November 2003 the oil was changed to 0W-20 Mobil 1. With 5,300 miles on the car, and 3,000 mile on this fill of 0W-20 I sent in a sample for analysis. The original oil tested was from a left over bottle from the original Mobil 1 oil cases. So it is of the same age as the oil in the engine. No additional oil was added to the car.

The Ford is a few months old. I changed the original oil after 1,200 miles and later took this sample of Pennzoil Multigrade (regular oil) 5W-20 and sent this in for analysis as well. This fill had 1,000 miles on it (total miles on car now - 2,200).

__________New __________Ferrari_______Ford____
______0W-20 Mobil 1 ___With 3,000 Mi __Expedition, 1,000 Mi on the oil
................................................................................................................
Iron__________ Chromium _____ Nickel ________ Aluminum ______3__________10___________5
lead __________ Copper ________ Tin ___________ Silver ________ Titanium ______ Silicon ________4___________10__________86
Boron ________247_________220_________101
Sodium _______15__________15__________4
Potassium ____ Molybdenum __ 164_________141_________437
Phosphorus __1375________ 1353________1306
Zinc ________ 1328________1313________1281
Calcium _____ 3456________3143________2340
Barium ______ Magnesium ____53_________154_________14
Antimony _____ Vanadium _____ Fuel %Vol _____0__________3.5__________1.5
Abs Oxid ______?__________48__________3
Abs Nitr _______?__________13__________4
Wtr %vol ______0_________ Vis CS 100C ___9.0________8.1 _________7.3
SAE Grade ____20_________20 __________20
Gly test ______NEG_______NEG _________NEG
TBN _________9.87_______not done_____not done

Everything was well within limits for each car given the newness.

I tested my oil using this company, I do recommend them: www.youroil.net
Go to this page and download this Excel file to see other peoples results: http://members.rennlist.com/oil/

I did some analysis of the Excel data on 144 automotive oil samples tested. This is as far as I can tell:
The average car had 3,750 miles on the oil fill when tested. Most tests were of oil having 2,000 to 5,000 miles on the oil. Range = 87 miles to 16,506, the most was in a 1983 Mercedes 300 TD with over 200,000 miles on it. They used Mobil One 15-50 and it tested normal.

70 tests were of 50 weight oil. Most were Mobil One 15-50, second was Castrol GTX 20W-50, third was Castrol Syntec 5W-50.
17 tests were of 40 weight oil. Most were Mobil One 0W-40.
26 tests were of 30 weight oil. Most were Mobil One 10W-30 then 5W-30.
3 tests were 5W-20 Ford oil in a single MY 2000 Lincoln LS. The first test that was sent in had slightly elevated Al and Si but the next two tests were normal. All samples had around 4,000 miles on them. The total car mileage was over 60,000 miles.
Other tests were not of engine oil (transmission, gear) or were not able to be determined.


Of the 40 and 50 weight oils none were tested thicker than the original grade but many that failed multiple tests were thinner. The reason was fuel dilution. Normal is up to 5 % but 6 to 8 will decrease your grade by one and 9 to 11 % or more will decrease the viscosity grade by 2 (a 50 weight oil will be thinned to a 30 weight oil).

Of the 20 and 30 weight oils that failed tests about a third thickened to the next higher viscosity grade. Only one thinned secondary to fuel dilution.

3 of the vehicles tested had over 200,000 miles.
16 of the vehicles had between 150,000 and 200,000 miles.
7 vehicles had between 90,000 and 140,000 miles.
24 vehicles had between 40,000 and 80,000 miles.
The remainder of vehicles had less than 40,000 miles on the clock.

aehaas

I use the 20 wt. oil
 
Well, no daggers for a few days so I will continue. I really want to get to 108, 9 as it gets more interesting to me:

Motor Oil 106
Part Six. A personal recommendation.

These are the motor oils I recommend. This is based on information that I just happened to collect. I have not gotten the specifications of all oils out there. My opinion on these oils is based on viscosities. By this I mean less honey like at start-up temperatures and appropriate for the required viscosity at operating temperature. I broke it down to two classes, 1-Fully Synthetic and 2-Mineral (dinosaur) oils and blends of dinosaur and synthetic. The asterisk is my preferred from each group of similar products. And these are usually easier to find in my experience. Remember, all oils are too thick at start-up. There is no such thing as an oil that is too thin below 100F. The thinnest motor oil made is still too thick at start up temperatures.

It seems that many engines work best with a multigrade 30 weight oil. Others would do better with a 40 weight oil and some would require a 20 weight oil. You can only determine what is best by experimenting. Admittedly I did not think my Ferrari Maranello would need a 20 weight oil. In truth I could actually use a 10 weight oil. A 0W-10 would be good but it simply does not exist for normal use. Red Line does make 2W, 5W and 10W oils (this acts as a 0W-10 multigrade oil) but they are for racing only. One Formula 1 team has actually used these very oils off the shelf from Red Line.


. Synthetic Class:

60 wt:
Redline straight 60 wt racing oil (racing only, acts as a SAE 20W-60 oil)
Shell Helix Ultra Racing Oil 10W-60
Valvoline SynPower 20W-50*

50 wt:
Castrol Syntec 5W-50*
Shell Helix Ultra 15W-50
Penn Synthetic 5W-50

40 wt:
Mobil 1, 0W-40*
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-50

30 wt:
Mobil 1, 0W-30*
Penn Synthetic 5W-30

20 wt:
Mobil 1, 0W-20*
Valvoline SynPower 5W-20


. Non-Synthetic and synthetic blends:

60 wt:
Castrol Syntec Blend 20W-50

50 wt:
None recommended - all relatively too thick at start up.

40 wt:
Penn regular Multigrade 10W-40
Valvoline Durablend 10W-40*

30 wt:
Penn regular Multigrade 5W-30*
Valvoline Durablend 5W-30

20 wt:
Penn regular Multigrade 5W-20*
Valvoline Durablend 5W-20


If while on the road you are forced to add oil there are rules. Let us say for example that our engine has synthetic Mobil One 0W-30.

Use the same type and brand if you can. If you are using Mobil 1 then it is acceptable to mix different grades but use a close grade when possible. It is not a good idea to mix say 1/2 your oil tank with 0W-30 and 1/2 with 15W-50 Mobil One.

If there is no Mobil 1 available then use mineral based oils next, preferably Mobil as first choice then any other name brand next.

The last choice is to mix a synthetic of another brand. They specifically said this should not be done in the past but most say that mixing is compatible now.

I personally use Mobil 1, 0W-20 in the 575 Maranello and for the first oil change I drained the Murcielago’s 5W-40 Agip and replaced it with 0W-30 Mobil 1. The engine became much quieter. A valve tappet noise disappeared. I may try the 0W-20 next. For all my other cars I use the regular Pennzoil Multigrade 5W-20.

You have to try by experimentation what operating oil grade your engine requires. In all cases however, you want the oil that gets least honey-like at startup.

Again, my choices based on oils I studied and giving the least thickening after engine shut-down.

aehaas

Oops- posted in wrong place. Please moderate this back with the others, sorry.

[ January 23, 2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: AEHaas ]
 
Crossbow,

The only exactly specified oil I use is the Agip 75W-90 LSX with limited slip additive for my wife’s Murcielago front and rear diff.

I like Red Line products for higher temperature operation, racing. I use their 75W-90 NS for my Ferrari transaxle. The product allows easier shifting than the specified Shell Transaxle oil and is non-corrosive for yellow metals, a big topic for Ferrari autos. I use their lightweight gear oil for my Expedition rear end.

For daily driving in the Maranello the trip is only 20 minutes to work and home, less to any local eatery. The car just does not get that hot. With that in mind I picked the thinnest oil money could buy, the Mobil One 0W-20. It has a pour point of - 57 C and a viscosity of 43 at 40 C, 8.4 at 100 C.
The Mobil gives me around 75 PSI at 2,000 RPM at full operating temperature (185 F) while driving around town. One worry was that the water from high humidity in Florida would be a problem with the lower temperatures I am running but there is just no water in the analysis.

The Red Line 5W-20 has a pour point of - 45 C, and viscosities of 55 and 9.1. I believe that most wear occurs during the first 15 - 20 minutes after start-up and that is the only time the car is ever driven. It is like endless operating at start-up temperatures.

Also, Ferrari’s do have trouble with early cat degradation. I am trying to keep the ZDP level lowered. The Red Line has 0.14 whereas the Mobil has 0.08 in the SM oil.

Like most I have tried different oils over the years but one cannot try them all. We all have our favorites.

aehaas
 
quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
I currently have about 3,500 miles (6k total) on my current fill of Mobil One 0W-20 with no loss of oil level. It has 3.5 percent fuel and this I accept.

Finally some insight on how those exotics get such abominable fuel mileage. The 575M for 2004 was rated at 10/16 and I've previously wondered "where does that fuel go?" I mean, it's an aerodynamic car though it is reported to weigh 3800lbs unloaded (I guess this qualifies as a "GT" not a sports car at this weight).

Despite 10/16 being really horrible, my all time favorite EPA mileage rating is an 80s Lambo Countach. 6/10!
 
offtopic.gif


quote:

Originally posted by kevm14:
Despite 10/16 being really horrible, my all time favorite EPA mileage rating is an 80s Lambo Countach. 6/10!

My dad's 79 Ford with a 302 and a VV carb only got like 9MPG. I swear, all my money during my High School days went into the gas tank of that car! Never thought a Lambo and an LTD would be in the same sentence, eh?
wink.gif
 
quote:

Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:
My dad's 79 Ford with a 302 and a VV carb only got like 9MPG. I swear, all my money during my High School days went into the gas tank of that car! Never thought a Lambo and an LTD would be in the same sentence, eh?
wink.gif


Bet 'ya I've got a Ford back home that'll beat that!
 
I think my wife's Murcielago EPA is 9 and 14 MPG but we get 13 around town here. I am running 0W-30 Mobil 1.

Incidentally, there are only 3 types of people, those who can count and those who cannot.

aehaas
 
quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
Well, no daggers for a few days so I will continue. I really want to get to 108, 9 as it gets more interesting to me:

Motor Oil 106
Part Six. A personal recommendation.

These are the motor oils I recommend. This is based on information that I just happened to collect. I have not gotten the specifications of all oils out there. My opinion on these oils is based on viscosities. By this I mean less honey like at start-up temperatures and appropriate for the required viscosity at operating temperature. I broke it down to two classes, 1-Fully Synthetic and 2-Mineral (dinosaur) oils and blends of dinosaur and synthetic. The asterisk is my preferred from each group of similar products. And these are usually easier to find in my experience. Remember, all oils are too thick at start-up. There is no such thing as an oil that is too thin below 100F. The thinnest motor oil made is still too thick at start up temperatures.

It seems that many engines work best with a multigrade 30 weight oil. Others would do better with a 40 weight oil and some would require a 20 weight oil. You can only determine what is best by experimenting. Admittedly I did not think my Ferrari Maranello would need a 20 weight oil. In truth I could actually use a 10 weight oil. A 0W-10 would be good but it simply does not exist for normal use. Red Line does make 2W, 5W and 10W oils (this acts as a 0W-10 multigrade oil) but they are for racing only. One Formula 1 team has actually used these very oils off the shelf from Red Line.


. Synthetic Class:

60 wt:
Redline straight 60 wt racing oil (racing only, acts as a SAE 20W-60 oil)
Shell Helix Ultra Racing Oil 10W-60
Valvoline SynPower 20W-50*

50 wt:
Castrol Syntec 5W-50*
Shell Helix Ultra 15W-50
Penn Synthetic 5W-50

40 wt:
Mobil 1, 0W-40*
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-50

30 wt:
Mobil 1, 0W-30*
Penn Synthetic 5W-30

20 wt:
Mobil 1, 0W-20*
Valvoline SynPower 5W-20


. Non-Synthetic and synthetic blends:

60 wt:
Castrol Syntec Blend 20W-50

50 wt:
None recommended - all relatively too thick at start up.

40 wt:
Penn regular Multigrade 10W-40
Valvoline Durablend 10W-40*

30 wt:
Penn regular Multigrade 5W-30*
Valvoline Durablend 5W-30

20 wt:
Penn regular Multigrade 5W-20*
Valvoline Durablend 5W-20


If while on the road you are forced to add oil there are rules. Let us say for example that our engine has synthetic Mobil One 0W-30.

Use the same type and brand if you can. If you are using Mobil 1 then it is acceptable to mix different grades but use a close grade when possible. It is not a good idea to mix say 1/2 your oil tank with 0W-30 and 1/2 with 15W-50 Mobil One.

If there is no Mobil 1 available then use mineral based oils next, preferably Mobil as first choice then any other name brand next.

The last choice is to mix a synthetic of another brand. They specifically said this should not be done in the past but most say that mixing is compatible now.

I personally use Mobil 1, 0W-20 in the 575 Maranello and for the first oil change I drained the Murcielago’s 5W-40 Agip and replaced it with 0W-30 Mobil 1. The engine became much quieter. A valve tappet noise disappeared. I may try the 0W-20 next. For all my other cars I use the regular Pennzoil Multigrade 5W-20.

You have to try by experimentation what operating oil grade your engine requires. In all cases however, you want the oil that gets least honey-like at startup.

Again, my choices based on oils I studied and giving the least thickening after engine shut-down.

aehaas

Oops- posted in wrong place. Please moderate this back with the others, sorry.


DRhaas. WHO wrote this?

Why are you not providing appropriate attribution?
 
quote:

Incidentally, there are only 3 types of people, those who can count and those who cannot.

That's true, but smart people learn from their mistakes. The smartest learn from others' mistakes. Better fix your signature.

wink.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom