from the piston crowns.... 172k civic 1.5l 1993, did the water thing 3 weeks ago worked pretty good, took most of it off but now its back like it was.....went through a tank of gas with 16oz of MMO and 40oz of paint thinner which was made up of the same junk in MMO... piston crowns are still black.... took off the pcv hose off the pcv valve and sucked in MMO , then did water, then did mmo, then did water... smoked the neighborhood out like a bomb went off.... took off the brake booster line and did paint thinner through there, made it bog down so it would shut off and i was gonna let it sit to soak then fire it back up but it just bogged down real real slow and never cut off so i turned the key off, but it was still bogging....my guess is the paint thinner was still combusting due to chamber temps and pushing the cylinders down..... couldnt shut it off so i redlined it and blew it all out.... still black stuff on piston tops, plugs are gapped correctly...im lost....oil leaking into the chambers and getting cooked on quicker than i can take it off?
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probably not. you are most likely just seeing soot on your piston crowns. try a LC piston soak overnight. also, have you tried the gary allan MMO/ATF regimen? i am going to try iy out around xmas on a 78 ford dually with a 460. i am trying to borrow a borescope to get a before and after look with photos.
could be soot.... the plugs had soot, and tailpipe had soot... how do i solve the soot issue?
Kestas
Staff member
Some soot is normal. But if you have soot on the plugs, then the problem isn't cleaning but that your engine is running rich, or too cold a plug. Tune your engine properly and you should minimize the soot problem.
yeah soot on the plugs, bosch platinums, gapped at what the book and plugs say.... the only reason i question if it's running rich is that i failed smog with high NOX (over twice the limit) and if it was running rich the extra fual would have cooled the chamber some, atleast enough to not fail by that amount, right? should i get new plugs and gap them bigger? dirty MAF ?
Kestas
Staff member
Is the engine perhaps burning oil? It could be leaky valve stem seals or bad rings causing soot problems.
doesn't seem to be... same oil level as when it was changed 1000 miles ago.... using 10-w30 exxon
Vairox:
The FIRST thing I'd do is replace those crappy Bosch platinum plugs for some good old NGKs!
When I had a Honda product (1988 Acura Integra), I fooled around and installed a set of the Bosch Platinums in. Car ran like crap. Went back to the NGKs (BTW, NGKs are probably speced for that car), and car no longer ran like crap.
Honda's of that era like NGKs, and some Denso plugs. At any rate, just make sure the plugs are copper-cored, maybe even gold paladium, not platinum.
The FIRST thing I'd do is replace those crappy Bosch platinum plugs for some good old NGKs!
When I had a Honda product (1988 Acura Integra), I fooled around and installed a set of the Bosch Platinums in. Car ran like crap. Went back to the NGKs (BTW, NGKs are probably speced for that car), and car no longer ran like crap.
Honda's of that era like NGKs, and some Denso plugs. At any rate, just make sure the plugs are copper-cored, maybe even gold paladium, not platinum.
Agree with Axjohn. Bosch plugs in a Honda is asking for trouble. The first thing that I do when an older car comes in with a complaint of rough running or failed emissions is check the plugs. If they are Bosch, Champion, etc, they get thrown in the garbage. Stick with OE NGK/Denso.
bosch isnt crap. i have bosch supers in my crv. my crv also gets 5mpg beter than the published fuel economy specs. while i dont think that is because of the plugs, i dont think i could be besting the published specs by 5mpg if the bosch plugs are crappy. they ertainly are not hurting anything.
Master ACiD:
My post referred specifically to Bosch Platinum plugs, not Bosch Supers, which I believe are copper-cored plugs. While not a Honda tech, I believe the Honda ECU of that era were matched (at least they appeared to be matched) to a copper cored or gold paladium spark plug resistance profile, and platinums just didn't cut it. Every person I know who ever installed Platinums in those cars quickly removed them (and that included platinums manufactured by other companies as well).
I would have absolutely no problem using Bosch Super plugs in that engine, but only if the NGKs weren't available.
After re-reading my original post, I don't see how you would infer that all Bosch products were crap, but only the platinums for this application.
My main point was to start the troubleshooting after known, factory OEM parts were installed and run for a time, in order to eliminate that as a varable.
My post referred specifically to Bosch Platinum plugs, not Bosch Supers, which I believe are copper-cored plugs. While not a Honda tech, I believe the Honda ECU of that era were matched (at least they appeared to be matched) to a copper cored or gold paladium spark plug resistance profile, and platinums just didn't cut it. Every person I know who ever installed Platinums in those cars quickly removed them (and that included platinums manufactured by other companies as well).
I would have absolutely no problem using Bosch Super plugs in that engine, but only if the NGKs weren't available.
After re-reading my original post, I don't see how you would infer that all Bosch products were crap, but only the platinums for this application.
My main point was to start the troubleshooting after known, factory OEM parts were installed and run for a time, in order to eliminate that as a varable.
Have you checked your EGR valve? If you only have high NOx then your EGR valve is probably plugged.
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I'm with Winston. You can't have high NOX if your diluting the intake charge with inert (spent) material. It may be plugged or just dysfunctional due to vac lines or whatever.
If, by chance, you have no EGR (mine doesn't ..but it's not a Honda) then you need to retard your timing
If, by chance, you have no EGR (mine doesn't ..but it's not a Honda) then you need to retard your timing
diluting with spent material? i dont get it.... no egr, maybe it's not a california model i dont know... i changed to bosch supers, cleaned tailpipe and still get soot.... not real bad, i mean if i didnt clean it for a month it would be black as coal....if i drive 20 miles its a real light soot film
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NOX is a byproduct of the nitrogen and higher combustion temps (around 2500 plus, IIRC). You can get rid of the CO (carbonmonoxide) by leaning it ..but when you do ..the NOX goes higher. It's part of what's called the "combustion triangle". You're in a combustion trap as far as emissions go. Too rich ..CO ..too lean ..NOX. There's no way around it. The only way to reduce the NOX is to cool the process. The only way to do this is to "recycle" already burned material (mostly CO2) by either introducing it into the intake stream (EGR)..or leaving it in the combustion chamber/cylinder with cam overlap. If you don't have an EGR ..you do it via injection timing and cam overlap.
For those who use cam overlap ..timing is critical to this adaquately regulating NOX output.
So if you have high NOX ...have NO EGR VALVE ...you need to adjust (retard) your timing (by whatever mode that is done).
For those who use cam overlap ..timing is critical to this adaquately regulating NOX output.
So if you have high NOX ...have NO EGR VALVE ...you need to adjust (retard) your timing (by whatever mode that is done).
If the EGR valve is working properly and the timing is right what else would cause high NOX in an EFI vehicle?
i can move the distributor back and forth, supposedly that does it... or break out a timing light and do the whole TDC thing.... problem with retarded timing is that the emmissions testers only allow so many degrees of timing retard before it's "too much" and not allowed, or am i misled on this?
[ January 28, 2006, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: vairox ]
wth is BTDC, and whats the diff between adjusting ignition timing and cam timing?
[ January 28, 2006, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: vairox ]
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I can't comment on the cam timing. The last OEM engine that I ever recall having a fixed distributor and a movable cam was some late 70's Oldsmobile engine. There you didn't adjust the distributor ..you dialed in the cam. I'm sure that there are others ...just that I haven't been exposed to them. Cam adjustment will offset the valve openings in relation to the piston/crank position ..while timing will only alter the spark in the fixed (whether or not that is alterable) relationship of the cam/crank position.
Good question. Perhaps injector flow imbalance where you've got lean cylinders and rich cylinders that balance out as far as O2 is concerned ...yet have high NOX in the post combustion recombination of the flows.
AFAIK NOX is due to high combustion temps, maybe i could just throw on a really huge fuel pump to dump gas into the chamber and cool them down during testing lol... maybe a water hose spraying the block i dont know.
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