Mobil 1 FS 0w40, RAM 1500 5.7L HEMI 6000 mi, high FE

[OVERKILL]

Latest UOA at 1.5k with valvoline EPHM 0w20 below. Cut the filter open per @OVERKILL , it wasn't awful, but there was quite a bit of metal present in the pleats, and even more in the oil remaining in the bottom of the filter. There was a lot of carbon and other debris present as well. All these pics were taken at 45x on a stereo microscope.

1500 mi on this oil and filter. View attachment 152147View attachment 152138View attachment 152148View attachment 152149

Wow, I think that's the first time we've had stereo microscope pics posted! Thank you! Any more conventional shots of the slurry in the bottom of the can? Also, was the metal ferrous? That'll be key as to whether it's potentially lifter material or not.

 

[himemsys]

Latest UOA at 1.5k with valvoline EPHM 0w20 below. Cut the filter open per @OVERKILL , it wasn't awful, but there was quite a bit of metal present in the pleats, and even more in the oil remaining in the bottom of the filter. There was a lot of carbon and other debris present as well. All these pics were taken at 45x on a stereo microscope.

1500 mi on this oil and filter. View attachment 152147View attachment 152138View attachment 152148View attachment 152149

The iron is wearing fairly consistently. The last three UOAs (from oldest to newest) are 12.5ppm / 1000 miles, 15.3ppm, and 12.0ppm. At least it's staying steady-ish.

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Wow, I think that's the first time we've had stereo microscope pics posted! Thank you! Any more conventional shots of the slurry in the bottom of the can? Also, was the metal ferrous? That'll be key as to whether it's potentially lifter material or not.

All was ferrous. No copper, no brass, no AL.

I'll get more pics of what was in the bottom of the can. (Still have it.) Most was fine particles and black debris, likely carbon. The bottom pic of the oil was taken from the bottom of the can, you can see the brownish black specs from that...

 

[OVERKILL]

All was ferrous. No copper, no brass, no AL.

I'll get more pics of what was in the bottom of the can. (Still have it.) Most was fine particles and black debris, likely carbon. The bottom pic of the oil was taken from the bottom of the can, you can see the brownish black specs from that...

Ooooof, OK, if it's all ferrous then you've probably lost a lifter

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Ooooof, OK, if it's all ferrous then you've probably lost a lifter

That’s the thing that’s troubling me.

It still sounds fine and runs fine other than the cold noise described above…

I guess it could just starting to be wearing into the lobe.

Have the pass side valve cover off right now and looking to see if any of the pushrods move less than the others.

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Well, we have our answers.

Tore the engine down. All lifters looked good, with the exception of cam material transfer.

The cam looked awful. Multiple lobes had the first hardness layer worn off with pitting. This is where the fe and shavings were coming from. The cam phaser didn’t look too hot either.

Anyway, here’s some pics. Comp 224/234 going in!

 

[OVERKILL]

Well, we have our answers.

Tore the engine down. All lifters looked good, with the exception of cam material transfer.

The cam looked awful. Multiple lobes had the first hardness layer worn off with putting. This is where the fe and shavings were coming from. The cam phaser didn’t look too hot either.

Anyway, here’s some pics. Comp 224/234 going in!

View attachment 158355

Thanks for the pics, so, this is NOT the typical lifter failure situation, in your case the SADI cam wasn't properly hardened (clearly). Fascinating! I know there has been some talk of the cams also failing (spalling seems to be the most frequent complaint), not just the lifters and this is proof positive of that, based on your noting that the lifters were not seized up.

This is a 2016, correct?

Would love to see some pics of the lifters too, if you can manage it.

Also, I think we have a pretty good idea when this started to go sideways based on your UOA history.

Poor QC strikes again. It's amazing that the North American manu's went from producing bomb-proof roller motors in the 80's and 90's where you could recycle the lifters with a massive cam and they wouldn't bat an eye to all three majors having lifter issues with stock bumpsticks and the cams themselves (at least these SADI ones) are GM's improperly hardened broomsticks all over again. Pretty sad.

 

[MParr]

Well, we have our answers.

Tore the engine down. All lifters looked good, with the exception of cam material transfer.

The cam looked awful. Multiple lobes had the first hardness layer worn off with putting. This is where the fe and shavings were coming from. The cam phaser didn’t look too hot either.

Anyway, here’s some pics. Comp 224/234 going in!

You might as well throw in some new matching Comp lifters.

 

[hemioiler]

This is the noise in question, , Seen plenty say its piston slap, and it's done this since new on certain oils when cold, more pronounced in gear under load. Could be valvetrain noise, who knows.

Was the worst on redline 5w20, drained it after a day, that was 70k ago or so. Non existent on the valvoline grp IIIs 5w20/30s or PUP 5w20. Present, but not too loud on the M1 0w40. It definitely has changed at least for me on oil type, or maybe simply it has everything to do with the thicker visc when cold... Redline 5w20 is known to be a bit thick isn't it?

My truck has made that same noise from day 1. I bought the truck new, and that noise in your video is literally what sent me hunting on my oil journey, including the behaviour where it gets worse in drive but lightens up in park. Well, that noise (which I've always thought was piston slap and would call more of a "knock"), and the loud valve train when its hot.

I've severely reduced the hot idle noise by switching oils and increasing the viscosity, I'm not smart enough to know what in the oil "fixed" it, just that it's gotten far less now.

But that cold start knock in your video is still concerning to me, because that's what I hear in mine as well from the day I picked it up new.

I'd love to hear a video of your engine again once you've gotten a new cam installed, to see if that particular noise has changed in any way.

This forum is great, so many other people post stuff on other forums and never follow up, so I really appreciate your thread here, I'm sorry for your trouble but it's such a great read for others like myself.

 

[TiGeo]

Wow - glad you got it figured out. So remember folks....the uptick in metals isn't "cleaning".

 

[buster]

So remember folks....the uptick in metals isn't "cleaning".

Good point. This is a great example where a UOA showed a deviation and it was in fact, wear.

 

[TiGeo]

Good point. This is a great example where a UOA showed a deviation and it was in fact, wear.

Similar to what I saw in mine when my timing chain tensioner broke. The wear rate/1000 miles is the way to go/look at it for sure.

 

[thescreensavers]

Great post, and good example of how UOAs can help!

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Thanks for the pics, so, this is NOT the typical lifter failure situation, in your case the SADI cam wasn't properly hardened (clearly). Fascinating! I know there has been some talk of the cams also failing (spalling seems to be the most frequent complaint), not just the lifters and this is proof positive of that, based on your noting that the lifters were not seized up.

This is a 2016, correct?

Would love to see some pics of the lifters too, if you can manage it.

Also, I think we have a pretty good idea when this started to go sideways based on your UOA history.

Poor QC strikes again. It's amazing that the North American manu's went from producing bomb-proof roller motors in the 80's and 90's where you could recycle the lifters with a massive cam and they wouldn't bat an eye to all three majors having lifter issues with stock bumpsticks and the cams themselves (at least these SADI ones) are GM's improperly hardened broomsticks all over again. Pretty sad.

Here’s some lifter pics. You can clearly see the material transfer from the cam.

 

[fantastic]

Here’s some lifter pics. You can clearly see the material transfer from the cam.

I was just going to say to replace the hydraulic lifters too but you are seeing this need first hand here.

 

[tcrs_circuit]

My truck has made that same noise from day 1. I bought the truck new, and that noise in your video is literally what sent me hunting on my oil journey, including the behaviour where it gets worse in drive but lightens up in park. Well, that noise (which I've always thought was piston slap and would call more of a "knock"), and the loud valve train when its hot.

I've severely reduced the hot idle noise by switching oils and increasing the viscosity, I'm not smart enough to know what in the oil "fixed" it, just that it's gotten far less now.

But that cold start knock in your video is still concerning to me, because that's what I hear in mine as well from the day I picked it up new.

I'd love to hear a video of your engine again once you've gotten a new cam installed, to see if that particular noise has changed in any way.

This forum is great, so many other people post stuff on other forums and never follow up, so I really appreciate your thread here, I'm sorry for your trouble but it's such a great read for others like myself.

That video there isn’t mine, but mine also has done it since I got it at 60k. Interestingly enough, it is worse on thicker oils for me. Whatever it is, it doesn’t seem to effect anything. The bores on mine look freshly honed making piston slap not a likely source either. When the new cam goes in it will have a choppy idle but I’ll get a video.

Here’s a pic of the bores. They all looked this good.

 

[tcrs_circuit]

You might as well throw in some new matching Comp lifters.

Of course, they are going in with the cam as well as pushrods and a complete head job.

 

[The Critic]

Of course, they are going in with the cam as well as pushrods and a complete head job.

Is this costing you more than a reman?

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Is this costing you more than a reman?

No. Comp cams kit was $1500 + the gaskets and all. $500 for both heads to be redone.

 

[loneryder]

This is what I’m thinking… if you look at my catch can thread, there is no boron at all in HPL’s PCMO, but as mileage accumulated on my OCI, boron was accumulating in my catch can, along with a decent dose of moly, but no wear metals.

Both @High Performance Lubricants and MolaKule believe these were deposits left behind from prior oils, and the AN/Esters in HPL were liberating some of these elements from engine surfaces. The wear metals did not show up at all in the PCV system, which means they’re staying in the pan even as internal surfaces are cleaned. If Mobil has gone back to the AN/Ester additives, it could literally be liberating iron particles that had “stuck” to the internals.

I’d do at least one more run on this M1 0w40 and see if the iron numbers drop. If so, no worries at all!

He's already changed to 5-30.