I agree. Takes a significant amount, and specific type and aniline point. The wording Warholic used was "nearly impossible to remove".
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Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 engine cleaning results
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“For GF-7, it’s built on a slightly different platform to meet the requirements. The Restore and Protect technology is above and beyond even the deposit performance required for GF-7. It exceeds that performance and does something that no other oil does or that’s actually required by GF-7. It is our own proprietary technology.”
"While the oil sports a proprietary formulation, Valvoline has noted two proprietary technologies–Active Clean, which removes deposits, and Liqui-Shield, which prevents deposit formation."
So take it for what it's worth. I'm going with him. HPL would be the only other oil I think that could. Maybe Asmoil SS. Just guessing.
"While the oil sports a proprietary formulation, Valvoline has noted two proprietary technologies–Active Clean, which removes deposits, and Liqui-Shield, which prevents deposit formation."
So take it for what it's worth. I'm going with him. HPL would be the only other oil I think that could. Maybe Asmoil SS. Just guessing.
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OVERKILL
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IIRC, it was @Tom NJ that covered this in a previous discussion, but ester selection is generally not done based on cleaning ability in PCMO's, it's for the performance in oxidation resistance, counteract PAO's seal shrink and provide solvency for the additive package. There are specific esters you can use if the desired goal is cleaning, but you will be making compromises on those other performance characteristics.
I can't imagine you would even need Valvoline Restore and Protect if you use top tier oil at reasonable intervals. If you don't need anything but GF-7/SQ oil I'd use Valvoline Restore and Protect and I'd use the others for specific specs or longer drains etc.
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Tom NJ
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Esters do not dissolve elemental carbon, and in spite of a career in esters I have not seen data showing esters to clean hard carbon ring deposits. That said, it's possible that some esters at some doses could dissolve some of the resins or polymeric products binding elemental carbon in deposits and thereby loosen them. Theory only, no data, but could be supported by the effectiveness of Valvoline's Premium Blue Restore with it's high ester load. I believe the cleaning from Valvoline Restore and Protect is from additives, not base oil.
OVERKILL
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That was the mechanism behind AutoRX, correct? I thought I recalled you mentioning cleaning properties of specific esters in the past, but perhaps that was Dave?
Haha I didn't respond before you took out the examples, but even BITOG's beloved Mobil 1 Extended Performance burned in a Subaru with religious 6k OCIs from new.
AutoRX was weak IMO. I'm not even convinced it ever worked. Was always anecdotal. It's geared more towards sludge etc. Similar to HPL Engine Cleaner. Won't clean engine deposits, especially the hard baked on kind.
Everything I've read to date (including what Tom said) suggests esters won't clean piston deposits and if they can they're not in enough concentration to do so in a PCMO. They will certainly help an oil run clean.
Keep in mind most PCMO with ester use about 6-10% (except RL) and Valvoline Premium Blue Restore was 60%.
Pretty consistent across the board - Red line, Amsoil, Tom, all PDS wording, Vavloline/Dr. Warholic. All said the same thing.
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I think the latest Advanced Clean is going to be better than the prior EP version.
I sure hope so. I’d love to see a tri syn formula come back to the mainstream.
Tom NJ
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As I recall, AutoRX claimed to contain lanolin, a large waxy ester which is relatively low in polarity. It may have contributed to engine cleaning, but I don't recall any hard scientific evidence to support the claims and I would expect any cleaning to be a slow process.
Broadly speaking, cleaning capability is often related to polarity, which in esters is sometimes measured by the Non-polarity Index, a calculation incorporating the molecular weight, number of carbons, and number of ester linkages. The lower the NPI, the more polar the ester, however, the calculation only applies to certain linear acid esters as it fails to take into account the effects of branching and ring compounds.
Of course the additives also play a huge role in cleaning, so while esters are known to contribute to cleaning properties in engine oils, isolating the effect of a given ester at a given dose on a given type of deposit would take a lot of work, something I have not seen. And since ester polarity and molecular size also affects seal and additive compatibility, one must balance the effects in the finished oil. This limits the ester choices and percentages to levels must useful for seal balancing, additive solubility, and to some extent lubricity.
Valvoline's Premium Blue Restore is a bit unusual in that it uses a high dosage of a low polarity ester (Priolube 1973 - Neopentylglycol Diisostearate) which is much more compatible with seals than the esters more commonly used in motor oils.
I probably discussed the cleaning properties of specific esters in the past, but with 2,825 posts over 19 years I'll be danged if I could find them.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Sorry, perhaps I should have said "behind the AutoRX claims", because both of you are quite right, there was never any real data presented that the product performed as advertised.Tom NJ said:
EC has liberated some carbonaceous material in filters, though not as much as the oil. I'd be careful tossing them in the same boat. Dave has indicated that it was formulated to be milder at cleaning than the oil intentionally so people didn't end up with plugged oil filters.
Right, quoting myself from earlier:
ester selection is generally not done based on cleaning ability in PCMO's, it's for the performance in oxidation resistance, counteract PAO's seal shrink and provide solvency for the additive package. There are specific esters you can use if the desired goal is cleaning, but you will be making compromises on those other performance characteristics.
Going to pull a few quotes from Dave here (which I'd thought you'd seen, but your statement above seems to imply you hadn't?):
High Performance Lubricants said:
High Performance Lubricants said:
High Performance Lubricants said:
High Performance Lubricants said:
Now, I have no idea what esters Dr. Rudnick chose to use, but it sounds like cleaning was one of the properties desired, and that was obviously the case with the EC.
I would add Redline Performance to your list and over what Amsoil could do by a good higher margin. ( how soon you of all people forget, you got your "chomping papers" on Redline love, come on
) I used Redline Performance 5W-30 Euro and cleared my massive fuel dilution problem, as high as 1.5 qt addition in a 3,000 mile run during winter. I was using Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 for about the last 1.5 to 2 years exclusively at 3,000 mile intervals, and my dilution was only getting worse. After switching over to Redline Performance 5W-30 Euro, I did my normal 1,500 mile oil height check to power suck out .75 Qt +/- and it was a micro hair above my fill line. I was astonished as I have been fighting massive fuel dilution for years. I was not seeing excessive wear, so I just lived with it. My hypothesis is I had the top two ring lands jammed and had fuel and combustion by products getting passed to my oil sump. I believe the ester in the oil while a small amount (90-93 oxidation if I remember right, revised formula has a bit less Ester then the old version I was using) was able to un jam my rings to finally seal the piston to bore seal. I have no summer fuel dilution and only a slight during Minnesota winters and that is not bad for a short tripper and a summer and winter 2 minute to 3 minute after start idler to give my pistons a chance to expand a bit before driving off. I saw a couple dissected Hyundai/Kia engines and they all seemed to have high piston skirt wear so I chose to give the overly short pistons a chance to expand and not add to a high chance of piston rock by adding load to a cold unexpanded piston. IT'S A HYUNDAI.
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4wd
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I use EC30 in good faith - but have not seen engine lab testing …
OVERKILL
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Nobody can tell you without an engine breakdown and knowing whether the ester used is of the polar variety.
Ya, most of us who have been around long enough know that using an large amount of highly polar esters is not a good thing because it competes with the formation of the AW layer.
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AW = Anti wear?
I have definitely seen those quotes before. It's certainly possible and HPL would be the oil that could, but it has to be tested and demonstrated via teardown. I've become a bit jaded towards unsubstantiated claims, from any company or source. In fact I keep coming back to what that XOM guy told me in 2004 about that. That's really what it comes down to for me. This is not in any way an attack on HPL or their credibility.
The Valvoline Blue Premium Restore patent was also an eye opener for me in terms of what it takes going the polar ester route. And it's substantial. And for that oil they don't even claim 100% clean. We also don't know how much or what type of esters HPL uses.
I would say just start with a good synthetic and conservative drains or based on UOA and don't hyperfocus like we have on oils that can clean pistons. Good oils run clean as we know.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Fair, but enough of us have experienced the weird carbonaceous gook in our oil filters after using HPL in very clean and new engines that it really doesn't leave many areas other than the ring lands for that material to be coming from. Remember, my wife's truck was run on Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0w20 since new, and yet the material that came out in the filter from the first run of HPL was substantial. And then that tapered off over subsequent runs.
While it's certainly not a teardown, I'm far from the only person on here to experience this, so I DO think that lends some credence to the claims being made here, even in the absence of definitive tear-down analysis (which, to be clear, I would prefer to have as well).
Yes, and that was developed to deal with a very specific problem in a very specific engine that was prone to ring coking on your bog standard HDEO's, and do it in a specific amount of time. I think that context is important.
No, and it may be something Dave doesn't want to divulge, which I respect. He has already shared far more than any other oil company in the history of this forum.
Sure, but then what does that say about the results that those of us have had coming from good oils, going to HPL? That's the "fly in the ointment" here so to speak. And we certainly don't see it on every application, some people make the switch and don't get the grit, so it's clearly not a universal phenomenon.
It's fun that these questions don't have easy answer