Mobil 1 15/w50 in Ford 4.6 V8 12,706 Mile OCI

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert

That engine was tested with 5/w30 and hot oil pressure was exactly the same on a mechanical gauge as it was with 20/w50.

Of course a 5W-30 will have a considerably lower operational viscosity that a 20W-50. One function of a properly operating OP gauge is as a viscosity meter. If the gauge is reading the same OP at the same oil temp' and the same high engine rpm, the oil pump would appear to still be in by-pass mode on the 5W-30 oil.

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert

That engine was tested with 5/w30 and hot oil pressure was exactly the same on a mechanical gauge as it was with 20/w50.

Of course a 5W-30 will have a considerably lower operational viscosity that a 20W-50. One function of a properly operating OP gauge is as a viscosity meter. If the gauge is reading the same OP at the same oil temp' and the same high engine rpm, the oil pump would appear to still be in by-pass mode on the 5W-30 oil.



One thing you begin to get into, when building high rpm engines with relatively high bearing speeds/surface area, is you need lots of oil pressure to keep the bottom end alive. You can still purchase a factory Ford 100 psi relief spring (if you know the part number) for 351 Cleveland (335 series engine) and 429 (385 series engines) because they require high pressures to keep them alive in a high rpm/endurance racing application. This includes installing restrictors in the main saddles to limit oil to the top end of the engine.

Small Block Chevrolet's also require oil restriction for sustained high rpm operation. We use big block Chevrolet pumps (9 tooth rotors as opposed to 5) for additional volume.

GM knew the small block needed more oil pressure for high rpm operation. You can still buy the 60 psi relief spring over the counter at any GM dealer by asking for part #3848911.

We also ran an external balance line on endurance application SBC's.

Pontiac is another engine that needs a lot of oil volume and pressure to keep them alive at 6500 rpm. Less would be required for a street engine of course, but if the OP only has 15-20 psi hot, then I would be concerned about going with a lower VI...FWIW

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert

That engine was tested with 5/w30 and hot oil pressure was exactly the same on a mechanical gauge as it was with 20/w50.

Of course a 5W-30 will have a considerably lower operational viscosity that a 20W-50. One function of a properly operating OP gauge is as a viscosity meter. If the gauge is reading the same OP at the same oil temp' and the same high engine rpm, the oil pump would appear to still be in by-pass mode on the 5W-30 oil.



One other thing....

In an engine, the pump is always 'on' so to speak, maintaining pressure against a very slow bleed through the lifters, pushrods, connecting rod and bearing clearances. It is impossible to run any oil pump without running in a bypass mode. This is how the system functions...

There is plenty of data available on this topic...

 

[Shannow]

Doctor_Bert,
interesting that external feed (seen a few of them on various workarounds downunder).

Has me wondering how much heat is lost in the external feed, and what the viscosity increase in the "fixed" locations is, as well as the increase in local supply pressure.

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Doctor_Bert,
interesting that external feed (seen a few of them on various workarounds downunder).

Has me wondering how much heat is lost in the external feed, and what the viscosity increase in the "fixed" locations is, as well as the increase in local supply pressure.


Good eye...

There are a number of shortcomings in the SBC oiling system, though everyone avoids talking about it. You won't 'see' the problems in a 13 second run, but after 150 laps, you will 'see' the problems.

Chevy puts oil to the center galley first, from the rear, and then feeds the cam bearings and lastly the main bearings as oil moves to the front of the engine. The wide side clearances needed for bearing cooling are also a factor. Routing oil from the rear to the front ensures better distribution of oil throughout the engine at elevated engine speeds, particularly on & off the throttle...

I doubt there is any increase in system pressure...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Doctor_Bert,
interesting that external feed (seen a few of them on various workarounds downunder).

Has me wondering how much heat is lost in the external feed, and what the viscosity increase in the "fixed" locations is, as well as the increase in local supply pressure.


Good eye...

There are a number of shortcomings in the SBC oiling system, though everyone avoids talking about it. You won't 'see' the problems in a 13 second run, but after 150 laps, you will 'see' the problems.

Chevy puts oil to the center galley first, from the rear, and then feeds the cam bearings and lastly the main bearings as oil moves to the front of the engine. The wide side clearances needed for bearing cooling are also a factor. Routing oil from the rear to the front ensures better distribution of oil throughout the engine at elevated engine speeds, particularly on & off the throttle...

I doubt there is any increase in system pressure...



Yes, I've heard the SBF oiling system was a fair bit better than the SBC one. Of course the Cleveland needed insanely high oil pressure to keep itself "healthy" at high rev's and the Windsor (in 351 flavour) with its 3" mains just wasn't setup for high RPM operation. This left you with the 289 or 302. Though I've heard of mains reducers for the 351W to allow you to run a 302/289 journalled crank.

Then there's the theory about firing order and how it loads the rod bearings. The 302HO (and 351) having the "better" firing order, whilst the 302 non-HO having the same effective firing order as the SBC.

This was also why, IIRC, they made "switch fire" camshafts for the SBC, which effectively gave them a firing order more in-line with the SBF, and why the LS1 has the same effective cylinder firing order as the SBF.

Though the wrench in all that is that the firing order for Coyote is now the same as the Ford Flathead, which is also used by BMW

(my M5 has the same firing order as a flathead Ford and the new Coyote engine).

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
A 50 grade in a mod motor,especially a stock mod motor is absurd.


Hmmmmm...

I am always fascinated by people who still believe and engine is 'built' for a certain viscosity, when in reality, almost ALL engines use a .001" per inch or journal diameter for oil clearances.

GM Engineers have statd that viscosity is decided by the coldest climate the car is likley to be shipped too and for CAFE concerns - that's fuel economy and not longevity.

Here are 3 modern cars/manuals I can put my hands on right now:

2014 Porsche Panamera Owner's Manual Page 257: "0W-40 for winter - 5W-50 for high temperatures"

2014 Corvette Ower's Manual Section 10-15: "For competitive driving, use Mobil 1 15W-50"

2015 Maserati GT Owner's Manual Page 207: "Fully synthetic 5W-40 all climatic ranges"

2013 Mustang BOSS 302 Supplement page 22 "Use Motorcraft SAE 5w-50 full synthetic or an equivalent SAE 5w-50 full synthetic oil meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C931-B."

BMW Motorsports vehicle - Fully synthetic Castrol TWS 10W-60 is the only certified and approved oil for these engines.

Hmmmmm...Maybe these engineers need to rethink the benefits of 0w-20 oil???

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Doctor_Bert,
interesting that external feed (seen a few of them on various workarounds downunder).

Has me wondering how much heat is lost in the external feed, and what the viscosity increase in the "fixed" locations is, as well as the increase in local supply pressure.


Good eye...

There are a number of shortcomings in the SBC oiling system, though everyone avoids talking about it. You won't 'see' the problems in a 13 second run, but after 150 laps, you will 'see' the problems.

Chevy puts oil to the center galley first, from the rear, and then feeds the cam bearings and lastly the main bearings as oil moves to the front of the engine. The wide side clearances needed for bearing cooling are also a factor. Routing oil from the rear to the front ensures better distribution of oil throughout the engine at elevated engine speeds, particularly on & off the throttle...

I doubt there is any increase in system pressure...



Yes, I've heard the SBF oiling system was a fair bit better than the SBC one. Of course the Cleveland needed insanely high oil pressure to keep itself "healthy" at high rev's and the Windsor (in 351 flavour) with its 3" mains just wasn't setup for high RPM operation. This left you with the 289 or 302. Though I've heard of mains reducers for the 351W to allow you to run a 302/289 journalled crank.


True...

One of our best SBC's for circle track was a 316 CID made by mating a 350 block (4.00" bore) with a solid snout 3.100" crank from a 262.

The result was a SBC that would run the short dirt tracks with an 8.14:1 FDR, turn more rpm, burn more fuel and drive away from the pack.

They later imposed a minimum CID to outlaw our small displacement engines.

We also campaigned a 348 CID SBC by mating a 3.25 crank to a 4.125 block.

Clevelands are great, they just need restrictors in the main saddles...

Funny thing about firing orders!!! Don't get me started!!!!!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert

We also campaigned a 348 CID SBC by mating a 3.25 crank to a 4.125 block.

Clevelands are great, they just need restrictors in the main saddles...





Woooo, that last one, you used a 400SBC block I assume with what, a 327 crank?

And I'd love to get you started on firing orders if you don't mind!

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Woooo, that last one, you used a 400SBC block I assume with what, a 327 crank?

Also, the post you quoted, I added more to it after you quoted it

Yep..I'm actually putting off painting the rear calipers on my 2001 Mustang GT by posting to this forum..LOL

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Woooo, that last one, you used a 400SBC block I assume with what, a 327 crank?

Also, the post you quoted, I added more to it after you quoted it

Yep..I'm actually putting off painting the rear calipers on my 2001 Mustang GT by posting to this forum..LOL


hahahhah! Awesome! I did the fronts on the M5 about a month ago

Wife is now bugging me to do the ones on the Charger, LOL!

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Firing orders...

To some degree, they are controlled by the positioning of the crankshaft throws, so for a given crank, several firing orders are possible. Ford changed the 351W to revise crankshaft loads. But there are other reasons.

I always felt that preventing any two adjacent cylinders from firing in close succession would improve the mixture distribution in the intake manifold and improve cylinder to cylinder average temps and power...

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
hahahhah! Awesome! I did the fronts on the M5 about a month ago

Wife is now bugging me to do the ones on the Charger, LOL!


Now, to find the right shade to match the rocker stripe....Hmmmmmmmm

The middle one is pretty close for engine enamel out of the can, don't you think???

I could use the same Glasurit BC/CC that we used on the stripe, but I don't think it would hold up to the heat...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
Firing orders...

To some degree, they are controlled by the positioning of the crankshaft throws, so for a given crank, several firing orders are possible. Ford changed the 351W to revise crankshaft loads. But there are other reasons.

I always felt that preventing any two adjacent cylinders from firing in close succession would improve the mixture distribution in the intake manifold and improve cylinder to cylinder average temps and power...


I've heard the same thing. And also that the "switch fire" SBC cams produced 10HP more due to that very reason

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
hahahhah! Awesome! I did the fronts on the M5 about a month ago

Wife is now bugging me to do the ones on the Charger, LOL!


Now, to find the right shade to match the rocker stripe....Hmmmmmmmm

The middle one is pretty close for engine enamel out of the can, don't you think???

I could use the same Glasurit BC/CC that we used on the stripe, but I don't think it would hold up to the heat...


Middle is excellent! I'm using PlastiKote caliper paint in red on the M5, which holds up exceptionally well in my experience. The wife wants Yellow (think Porsche yellow) on the Charger, which will involve picking up another can unfortunately

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Noticed your sig...

My high school car and my first paint job - 1982

First ticket in the Dodge - Northbound State Route 99 near Tipton, California

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Man, we really wrecked this thread...well, at least it was mine to start with LOL!!!!!

Well, why not!!!

 

[Doktor_Bert]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Hahahhah! Awesome! I did the fronts on the M5 about a month ago

Wife is now bugging me to do the ones on the Charger, LOL!


My rear brakes were overdue for replacement, so I decided to try and find a spray can engine enamel that would be a close match to the Glasurit 90-A-323 High Intensity Red used on the rocker stripe. Although I have plenty of the BC/CC, I don't think it would hold up well on a brake component.

After some experimentation, I found that Dupli-Color #DE1632 Chrysler Red (center) was as close as I could get.



Before:



And after:


How does it look???

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
Originally Posted By: Clevy
A 50 grade in a mod motor,especially a stock mod motor is absurd.


Hmmmmm...

I am always fascinated by people who still believe and engine is 'built' for a certain viscosity, when in reality, almost ALL engines use a .001" per inch or journal diameter for oil clearances.

GM Engineers have statd that viscosity is decided by the coldest climate the car is likley to be shipped too and for CAFE concerns - that's fuel economy and not longevity.

Here are 3 modern cars/manuals I can put my hands on right now:

2014 Porsche Panamera Owner's Manual Page 257: "0W-40 for winter - 5W-50 for high temperatures"

2014 Corvette Ower's Manual Section 10-15: "For competitive driving, use Mobil 1 15W-50"

2015 Maserati GT Owner's Manual Page 207: "Fully synthetic 5W-40 all climatic ranges"

2013 Mustang BOSS 302 Supplement page 22 "Use Motorcraft SAE 5w-50 full synthetic or an equivalent SAE 5w-50 full synthetic oil meeting Ford specification WSS-M2C931-B."

BMW Motorsports vehicle - Fully synthetic Castrol TWS 10W-60 is the only certified and approved oil for these engines.

Hmmmmm...Maybe these engineers need to rethink the benefits of 0w-20 oil???

There is no rethinking required.
In all those applications, the heavier oil is specified or just an option because of the possibility of high oil temp's. If you're not seeing those high oil temp's it's counter-productive using the heavier oil.

Regarding Porsche. Porsche used to recommend 20W-50 as an option for my older 928 but now only one 50 grade oil is on their A40 list of approved engine lube's and it's M1 5W-50 (HTHSV 4.4cP, 180 VI) and this is of course much lighter than a 15W-50 or 20W-50. The FF for all engines is M1 0W-40 (HTHSV 3.8cP, 185 VI) and this oil has been back spec'd 30 model years.

 

[Clevy]

No where have I ever said,written nor implied that any engine is built for a specific grade of oil.
In fact if you've seen any of my posts you'd realize I'm a thicker is better guy at heart HOWEVER because I've owned/raced the exact same car you have and from experience there was no issue running the prescribed 20 grade in excess of 150000 miles and I sprayed that particular engine with in excess of 500 pounds of nitrous over its lifetime,and still the engine ran great.
I removed it because it kept spitting out plugs so I swapped in a 4v engine from an 04 Mach 1.
And we've got a member here who runs minimum of 15000 mile intervals with the prescribed 20 grade in his ford truck and the uoa come back normal.
And there is ample data showing that a mod motors life expectancy is stellar using the prescribed 20 grade,So please Bert don't put words in my mouth.
I've never once said or written that an engine is built for a specific oil grade,not once.
What I said was going to a 50 grade in a 2v is absurd. I've done it,and perhaps on the dyno at wide open throttle there was no change in power output however I can say without a shred of doubt that when I used a 40 grade in mine the engine was sluggish at part throttle and was slower to rev.
I know great wrenches and what seems to be common with them is they are clueless when it comes to oil(there are a few exceptions-Trav).