MK7 VW GTI Camshaft Scoring?

A

asus389

Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
13
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
My 2017 VW GTI has 120k miles on it. It went in for service to diagnose a loud rattle noise near the upper part of the engine that was originally thought to be due to a failed cam adjuster magnet. When replacing the magnets didn't resolve the issue, the valve cover was pulled and the cam sprocket was found to be loose/worn which seems to be causing the noise. Incidentally the mechanic noticed that the camshafts have some scoring on them with associated scoring on the journals/head and valve cover where the cams sit. The car had the timing chain done 6 months prior to when this noise developed. Two weeks prior to the noise, I had an oil change/dsg fluid change.

I have owned the car since new, its not tuned or tracked and AFAIK the car has never been run low on oil. The low oil level or pressure light hasn't ever been on and sporadic checks of the dipstick show little to no level decrease between oil changes. I followed the 1 yr/10k VW recommended synthetic oil change interval with the VW 5w40 oil (502?). Since no other cause has been identified, the mechanic is suggesting the 10k oil change interval over time caused this wear to develop. Unfortunately I hadn't had a chance to do a UOA on this car before the problem developed.

Has anyone else run into this? Thoughts on the cause?
 
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asus389 said:
My 2017 VW GTI has 120k miles on it. It went in for service to diagnose a loud rattle noise near the upper part of the engine that was originally thought to be due to a failed cam adjuster magnet. When replacing the magnets didn't resolve the issue, the valve cover was pulled and the cam sprocket was found to be loose/worn which seems to be causing the noise. Incidentally the mechanic noticed that the camshafts have some scoring on them with associated scoring on the journals/head and valve cover where the cams sit. The car had the timing chain done 6 months prior, and was running fine until this noise developed.

I have owned the car since new, its not tuned or tracked and AFAIK the car has never been run low on oil. The low oil level or pressure light hasn't ever been on and sporadic checks of the dipstick show little to no level decrease between oil changes. I followed the 1 yr/10k VW recommended synthetic oil change interval with the VW 5w40 oil. Since no other cause has been identified, the mechanic is suggesting the 10k oil change interval over time caused this wear to develop. Unfortunately I hadn't had a chance to do a UOA on this car before the problem developed.

Has anyone else run into this? Thoughts on the cause?
Click to expand...
Maybe. 7.5k max for EA888 engines.
 
I see you're in Michigan, cold oil flow is always a possibility in the great white North. (Especially with a longer OCI.)
I worked at a dealer in the south for almost 30 years, before returning north to work on the same make before retirement.
I saw the same engines with rare problems in the South, have many failures in the North.
Components like timing chain tensioners, VTC actuators, and camshafts just don't do well, waiting for cold thick oil to get to them.
Especially noticed were failures of mechanical locks, that are designed to hold a component's position until oil pressure takes over.
 
What I'm surprised is that the camshaft damage wasn't noticed during the timing chain replacement. Was that done by the same mechanic?
If the scoring was caused by the 10k OCIs, then these camshafts would've been scored for a long time now. So something doesn't seem right to me. I think something went wrong during the timing chain job.
 
Mechanician said:
I see you're in Michigan, cold oil flow is always a possibility in the great white North. (Especially with a longer OCI.)
I worked at a dealer in the south for almost 30 years, before returning north to work on the same make before retirement.
I saw the same engines with rare problems in the South, have many failures in the North.
Components like timing chain tensioners, VTC actuators, and camshafts just don't do well, waiting for cold thick oil to get to them.
Especially noticed were failures of mechanical locks, that are designed to hold a component's position until oil pressure takes over.
Click to expand...

Those lock/ratchets could just break from the engine shrinking too much when cold
 
KrisZ said:
What I'm surprised is that the camshaft damage wasn't noticed during the timing chain replacement. Was that done by the same mechanic?
If the scoring was caused by the 10k OCIs, then these camshafts would've been scored for a long time now. So something doesn't seem right to me. I think something went wrong during the timing chain job.
Click to expand...
My thoughts as well.
Dealer trying to pass the buck......
This is not a common issue with VW.....
10k or not.
Any 5w40 can handle most 10k situations
 
KrisZ said:
What I'm surprised is that the camshaft damage wasn't noticed during the timing chain replacement. Was that done by the same mechanic?
If the scoring was caused by the 10k OCIs, then these camshafts would've been scored for a long time now. So something doesn't seem right to me. I think something went wrong during the timing chain job.
Click to expand...
Technically, you don't have to remove the cam girdle cover on these engines if you are only replacing the chain and tensioner.
 
The Critic said:
Technically, you don't have to remove the cam girdle cover on these engines if you are only replacing the chain and tensioner.
Click to expand...

The valve cover was removed and resealed at the same time as the timing chain job because the tech noted some oil seepage into one of the spark plug sockets, so they suggested the valve cover be resealed at the same time.

The timing chain wasn't worn to the point of needing to be replaced yet, the estimate was 50-60% worn. It was replaced because the timing chain cover had started to leak and the mechanic suggested replacing the timing chain and associated components at the same time as the cover so that I didn't pay for the labor twice when at some future time the timing chain itself needed to be done.

There was no note of scoring at the time of this work, although idk how closely they looked at the surface of the cams or whether the film of oil was removed. I'm not a mechanic, but I'd think someone would have noticed the scoring on one of the surfaces of the valve cover, but maybe not?

Is there something that typically goes wrong doing timing chain/valve cover work that might lead to scoring the cams? Is there some other part of the engine that is accessible to inspect that might differentiate between longer term wear from extended oil intervals vs damage from the repair? Some other signs of lack of oil changes that would be present if that was the case?

Its an EA888 gen 3 engine. Not sure which engine code, car was the SE trim which that year came with the performance pack.
 
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It is my understanding that some light scoring on the cam girdle cover isn't exactly uncommon on these engines.

My guess is that either the screen on the cam bridge caused the cam failure (some guys remove them, period, for this reason) or too much sealant was used and it starved the cam of oil.
 
unless your driving almost ALL highways as i once did a thou a week + using real synthetic oil as i did when i went with 10 thou changes, every 10 weeks, 10 thou is NOT GOOD IMO!! long changes like lifetime fluids are a SELLING point not for longevity!!!
 
The Critic said:
It is my understanding that some light scoring on the cam girdle cover isn't exactly uncommon on these engines.

My guess is that either the screen on the cam bridge caused the cam failure (some guys remove them, period, for this reason) or too much sealant was used and it starved the cam of oil.
Click to expand...

Yeah I’m not sure if this revision of the engine has the screen on the cam bridge or not. I can’t really tell by looking at the picture of the part online. It does have a screen in the spool valves. Maybe that let go?

At least one of the cams is getting replaced due to the sprocket failing. What is the consequence of just running it with the other stuff having scoring? Is there some threshold where it won’t work? The other option is to replace the head and valve cover, which is a lot more expensive.
 
I have not gone that deep into a EA888. There is an EA888 builder's group on facebook that may be worth checking out.
 
I guess the presumption would be since the car wasn't run low on oil, that either something is blocking oil from getting to the cams, or the oil lost lubrication towards the end of the OCI and this wear is the result? Does this oil really fail to lubricate at 10k? Seems unlikely?
 
asus389 said:
I guess the presumption would be since the car wasn't run low on oil, that either something is blocking oil from getting to the cams, or the oil lost lubrication towards the end of the OCI and this wear is the result? Does this oil really fail to lubricate at 10k? Seems unlikely?
Click to expand...
I don’t think this is related to the OCI. I’m guessing it is the screen or too much sealant.

They’re very well machined surfaces. Even a small amount of sealant will cause a lot of squeeze out, so if one used too much, it can be a real problem.

IMG_6515.jpeg


IMG_6513.jpeg


IMG_6512.jpg


IMG_6511.jpeg
 
Even the factory uses the wrong sealant in many places. Many brands have problems because of it.

So how many miles when the T chain was first replaced?
I know of a 120K mile CRV that needed a timing set, and everyone always says the newer engines last longer than the older 60's models did? :ROFLMAO: :unsure:
 
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