Metal flakes in oil, Normal UOAs...

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by tcrs_circuit

Originally Posted by PimTac

Have you considered dropping the pan if it's not too much trouble? Would the additives be loosening up old debris from the previous failure?

I may do so. I only added the additives this OCI after seeing the metal unless you are talking about the add pack in the oil... I guess that it possible though. when doing the timing, the engine was VERY clean. only light varnish.

Okay, got ya. I was thinking the additives were in for a while. It could be that your pan has a lot of buildup and needs cleaning. It would give you a peek at the bottom end as well.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

If it's not somehow "leftover" metal from the previous timing chain issue, I doubt a boundary area additive like moly is going to stop or even limit it in any appreciable way. (2 metal parts that at one time had sufficient clearance that the oil film thickness was sufficient to mitigate metal to metal contact, no longer have it) Was there no metal in any of the previous drains between when you did the UOA and now?

 

[3311]

I had an oil pump bypass stick open resulting in spun cam bearing. Oil was grey but uoa didnt show much.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Crankshaft

No, cranks are harder than anything that rides them, you'd have to spin a rod or main bearing for it to be crank metal.

It's not crank metal. It's the surrounding metal that gets ground. This video of a teardown shows how oil starvation can cause the crank to grind. Now granted this is an extreme example but I'd imagine it wouldn't take much to begin to see metal in the pan/filter. Dunno..

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

If it's not somehow "leftover" metal from the previous timing chain issue, I doubt a boundary area additive like moly is going to stop or even limit it in any appreciable way. (2 metal parts that at one time had sufficient clearance that the oil film thickness was sufficient to mitigate metal to metal contact, no longer have it) Was there no metal in any of the previous drains between when you did the UOA and now?

I first noticed the metal around 198K. It may have been present prior, dont know as i never looked. Every drain since, has had metal in it. I doubt its the oil pump as i have around 80-90PSI cold, and 20 hot idle. The ford spec is 20-45 at 1500, and i have 40 psi. I'd honestly think that something would be making noise if its producing that much metal... it's odd, im really not sure.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Crankshaft

No, cranks are harder than anything that rides them, you'd have to spin a rod or main bearing for it to be crank metal.

It's not crank metal. It's the surrounding metal that gets ground. This video of a teardown shows how oil starvation can cause the crank to grind. Now granted this is an extreme example but I'd imagine it wouldn't take much to begin to see metal in the pan/filter. Dunno..

The first thing that will happen is that you'll spin a bearing, typically a rod bearing. To have ferrous material coming off anything on/around the crank, you'll have noise, because oil starvation will very quickly cause you to spin a rod bearing and then she'll knock until it gets shut off or the rod exits the side of the block. Remember, the OP said that this is magnetic. The crankshaft is either steel or iron (magnetic) but everything it touches, save the timing chain, isn't. The fact it hasn't self-destructed yet and isn't making awful sounds points to the ferrous material not coming from the crank area. I've torn down quite a few engines, including ones that have spun a rod bearing to the point that it ate the journal on the crank. You know when this is happening.

 

[tcrs_circuit]

UOA results in. Bearings on this engine (Both rod and main) are aluminum. The cam rides on the head, and has no bearing, Head is aluminum. Copper went up to 8ppm this time. Iron 10ppm below average. Metal flakes are silver/grey in color and magnetic so not copper. I don't know. Given the fact that its not making and noise, id wager that this metal is left over from the timing chain failure previously. Id think that if there were a issue, iron would be higher. Anyone know where the copper could be coming from? Maybe a crankshaft thrust bearing?

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by tcrs_circuit

UOA results in. Bearings on this engine (Both rod and main) are aluminum. The cam rides on the head, and has no bearing, Head is aluminum. Copper went up to 8ppm this time. Iron 10ppm below average. Metal flakes are silver/grey in color and magnetic so not copper. I don't know. Given the fact that its not making and noise, id wager that this metal is left over from the timing chain failure previously. Id think that if there were a issue, iron would be higher. Anyone know where the copper could be coming from? Maybe a crankshaft thrust bearing?

Most likely bearings/sleeve..like I previously said. Your rig does have almost 250k miles so it's not exactly like bearing failure would be unheard of. From the link below... "Copper is a component of Bronze and Brass which are used in transmissions, shifters, worm gears, bearings, sleeves, and other areas to help reduce wear. Many crankshaft and camshaft bearings have a bronze layer just below the lead/tin bearing overlay. Potential sources of copper in UOA

 

[PimTac]

Does this vehicle have a oil cooler?

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter

Originally Posted by tcrs_circuit

UOA results in. Bearings on this engine (Both rod and main) are aluminum. The cam rides on the head, and has no bearing, Head is aluminum. Copper went up to 8ppm this time. Iron 10ppm below average. Metal flakes are silver/grey in color and magnetic so not copper. I don't know. Given the fact that its not making and noise, id wager that this metal is left over from the timing chain failure previously. Id think that if there were a issue, iron would be higher. Anyone know where the copper could be coming from? Maybe a crankshaft thrust bearing?

Most likely bearings/sleeve..like I previously said. Your rig does have almost 250k miles so it's not exactly like bearing failure would be unheard of. From the link below... "Copper is a component of Bronze and Brass which are used in transmissions, shifters, worm gears, bearings, sleeves, and other areas to help reduce wear. Many crankshaft and camshaft bearings have a bronze layer just below the lead/tin bearing overlay. Potential sources of copper in UOA

These engines have aluminum rod and main bearings. Copper isnt from there. I bet the lifters have brass in them, and the thrust washers appear to be brass.

Originally Posted by PimTac

Does this vehicle have a oil cooler?

It does not.

 

[ka9mnx]

What oil are you using? Phos and Zinc look rather low.

 

[tcrs_circuit]

Originally Posted by ka9mnx

What oil are you using? Phos and Zinc look rather low.

Pennzoil Platinum HM 10/30

 

[ka9mnx]

I figured it was a 10w-30. Thanks for the info. I don't understand the low Phos/Zinc. Will require more research on my part.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by tcrs_circuit

These engines have aluminum rod and main bearings. Copper isnt from there. I bet the lifters have brass in them,

Correct, they are bi-metal bearings in these engines, no copper. The HLA's don't move (they are fixed in the head and simply pump-up to take the lash out of the roller assembly that rides the lobe) and I doubt they have brass in them, they look like a mini standard hydraulic lifter if we are talking a 2V engine. I can't see any scenario where they would shed metal.

 

[ka9mnx]

I haven't torn down a worn engine in some time. When I did, the rod/main bearings were worn down to the copper babbet.(?)