Metal flakes in oil, Normal UOAs...

Messages
4,030
Location
WA
Originally Posted by bbhero
Thus why UOAs are not the end all and be all in indication of engine wear.... Normal UOA = Chunks of metal still present in oil filter and in drain pan. Thus why our observations with our own eyes are still very important.
... and then you have people lining their pan and filter with magnets, so there's that. I don't know how that DOESN'T skew wear metals on a UOA?? (still better to keep the metal out of the stream IMO but just saying..)
 

tcrs_circuit

Thread starter
Messages
33
Location
Palmdale, CA
Going to pull the valve covers and have a look soon. Need to make time for it. I've been considering just running it and getting something new as well.... we'll see. If i dont find anything under the valve covers and if the timing chains still look good and have no slack, im probably just going to run it until it dies.
 
Messages
9,318
Location
Virginia
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by bbhero
Thus why UOAs are not the end all and be all in indication of engine wear.... Normal UOA = Chunks of metal still present in oil filter and in drain pan. Thus why our observations with our own eyes are still very important.
... and then you have people lining their pan and filter with magnets, so there's that. I don't know how that DOESN'T skew wear metals on a UOA?? (still better to keep the metal out of the stream IMO but just saying..)
I did not mention anything about magnets all around like decorating a Christmas tree LOL Still... This proves a used oil analysis is not the end all and be all.... Use it to determine if coolant is present ?? Great use for it... Use to determine if fuel dilution is a problem ?? Great use for it... Use it to determine if there's a leak in the air filtration system because of high silicon ?? Another great use for it... Use it to determine if the oil viscosity is within range/grade after certain amount of miles ?? Great use for a UOA... Use it to determine if TAN and TBN are not beyond acceptable limits ?? Great use for the used oil analysis... Having a good UOA results and metal chunks in the oil filter and drain pan.... Demonstrates the limited use of a UOA.
 
Messages
4,030
Location
WA
Originally Posted by bbhero
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by bbhero
Thus why UOAs are not the end all and be all in indication of engine wear.... Normal UOA = Chunks of metal still present in oil filter and in drain pan. Thus why our observations with our own eyes are still very important.
... and then you have people lining their pan and filter with magnets, so there's that. I don't know how that DOESN'T skew wear metals on a UOA?? (still better to keep the metal out of the stream IMO but just saying..)
I did not mention anything about magnets all around like decorating a Christmas tree LOL
I'm not saying you do it..i was just saying I've seen pictures of pans that are practically lined with them. I suppose it's like a "necessary" evil thing I guess...i don't do it. I don't even have a magnetic drain plug. (maybe that's dumb of me, dunno..) And your assessment of the worth of UOA's is on point imo.
 
Last edited:
Messages
9,318
Location
Virginia
Ahh you are fine... Yeah I don't do that either obviously. I am sure it has to do some good. It's like that Gold rush show... Except it's not gold and it is not good LOL
 
Messages
4,030
Location
WA
Originally Posted by bbhero
Ahh you are fine... Yeah I don't do that either obviously. I am sure it has to do some good. It's like that Gold rush show... Except it's not gold and it is not good LOL
Yeah, def' one of those collection methods where you DON'T want to see anything collected. I guess I could have done it when I did the pan seal a couple years back...but no way I'm taking it apart just for that. I used Permatex red and nailed it (miraculously) on the first try...so that bad boy ain't coming off unless it's to replace the pump...... guess I could put in a magnetic plug, maybe I'll put that on my list.🤔
 
Last edited:
Messages
25,836
Location
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Those are not particles that can be measured in PPM, I would think too big for a UOA. Something is wearing badly in that engine, what exactly I have no idea not even a good guess. Wait and see or tear it down are the only real options. You could pull the valve covers, if its not in the upper engine then at least you know where it isn't or you find something.
 
Messages
10,004
Location
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by danez_yoda
not sure if the UOA would catch big chunks like this in the oil by the time it made it to the lab. may have settled in the container. Could also be a botched UOA as well. I would call and ask questions.
The lab uses a centrifuge to take out all the big pieces (anything visible to the eye, and much smaller than that!) before the sample is fed into the machine.
 
Messages
10,004
Location
Waco, TX
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
I'm not saying you do it..i was just saying I've seen pictures of pans that are practically lined with them. I suppose it's like a "necessary" evil thing I guess...i don't do it. I don't even have a magnetic drain plug. (maybe that's dumb of me, dunno..).
Then you've got the folks like me that do this:
Originally Posted by Linctex
Magnets are 8mm N50 neodymium [Linked Image from bobistheoilguy.com]
 
Messages
4,030
Location
WA
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
I'm not saying you do it..i was just saying I've seen pictures of pans that are practically lined with them. I suppose it's like a "necessary" evil thing I guess...i don't do it. I don't even have a magnetic drain plug. (maybe that's dumb of me, dunno..).
Then you've got the folks like me that do this:
Originally Posted by Linctex
Magnets are 8mm N50 neodymium [Linked Image from bobistheoilguy.com]
Tbh I'd probably do that if I didn't have a cartridge filter. I'm not sure how I would do that on a cartridge... maybe rtv small magnets to the side of the housing if there's enough clearance? Dunno.. not something I've ever really put much thought into. Would that impact flow negatively on a cartridge setup?
 
Messages
3,690
Location
Chicagoland
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Tbh I'd probably do that if I didn't have a cartridge filter. I'm not sure how I would do that on a cartridge... maybe rtv small magnets to the side of the housing if there's enough clearance? Dunno.. not something I've ever really put much thought into. Would that impact flow negatively on a cartridge setup?
Might be able to mount some stronger neodymium magnets on the exterior of the cartridge housing. Not ideal, but you're also not risking one coming lose inside the filter housing.
 
Messages
4,030
Location
WA
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Tbh I'd probably do that if I didn't have a cartridge filter. I'm not sure how I would do that on a cartridge... maybe rtv small magnets to the side of the housing if there's enough clearance? Dunno.. not something I've ever really put much thought into. Would that impact flow negatively on a cartridge setup?
Might be able to mount some stronger neodymium magnets on the exterior of the cartridge housing. Not ideal, but you're also not risking one coming lose inside the filter housing.
That's my principal fear. I know zilch about magnets. It's a plastic housing a few mm thick...ya think there's magnets that could be effective??? Do they have a rating for "strength"? I wonder if they make a tape like magnet I could wrap around the housing?? Of course it would have to be strong enough to be worth a darn. At least I know if I rtv them to the outside they shouldn't go anywhere... just have to make sure I got a good clean surface to attach them to.
 
Last edited:
Messages
1,775
Location
RI
Your timing chain guides will shed metal when they go bad. Does the engine have any chain related noise?
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Messages
45,911
Location
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Aren't rings usually layered in construction with a steel backing? (aluminum over steel for example)
No, rings are typically steel with the compression ring faced with moly, chromium or iron.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Could be something in the valve train...
Could be, but assuming this is a 2V 4.6L, the limit of culprits would primarily revolve around the timing chain setup, as the roller followers if one was failing, you'd know it.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Crankshaft
No, cranks are harder than anything that rides them, you'd have to spin a rod or main bearing for it to be crank metal.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
rings to liner
Yes, it could be wall or ring material. One would suspect a ton of blowby if that was the case however.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
timing chain
Another good possibility.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
No oil pump sounds, right?
I've never had an oil pump make noise, but if the pump is going out, this is typically accompanied by a lack of oil pressure. Unfortunately, it would have the Ford faux gauge which tells one nothing other than pressure is present.
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Gonna be impossible to say with any certainty without an expensive tear down... and with that much metal (from the pics it looks like a significant amount to me) I don't know of anything you can pour into the crankcase to stop that kind of wear. (av little bit of metal is normal)
Per Trav's "wizard in a can" comment from ages ago, I agree, there isn't anything that can be poured into this engine that is going to help here, it needs a physical inspection.
 
Messages
989
Location
Florida
I had an 02 f150 w/ 4.6 2v, that year came with PI heads and never saw a shard of metal in the 240k I owned it. Brother in-law owns it now and loves it. I only used 10w30 synthetic, once a year I did an OCI of 15w40 just for the higher detergent. Your metal shavings are questionable. I would just do short OCI's with any cheap house oil as I suspect something internally is failing. Or, the timing chain is loose and rubbing the cover flaking parts of the chain and aluminum cover in the oil.
 

JAG

Messages
5,320
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
That's quite the mystery of what is wearing so rapidly. The next UOA will be interesting. It might falsely indicate like your prior UOA did that wear rates are fine, due to the limitations of UOAs for quantifying wear, especially when the particle sizes are large, as your appears to be. Your dilemma is should you just keep driving and hope that all parts of the engine last long enough or spend the time and money to disassemble the engine and replace parts in need of replacement.
 

tcrs_circuit

Thread starter
Messages
33
Location
Palmdale, CA
Originally Posted by mattd
Your timing chain guides will shed metal when they go bad. Does the engine have any chain related noise?
No chain related noise. Nothing. No lifter noise, no lower end noise, nothing..
Originally Posted by JAG
That's quite the mystery of what is wearing so rapidly. The next UOA will be interesting. It might falsely indicate like your prior UOA did that wear rates are fine, due to the limitations of UOAs for quantifying wear, especially when the particle sizes are large, as your appears to be. Your dilemma is should you just keep driving and hope that all parts of the engine last long enough or spend the time and money to disassemble the engine and replace parts in need of replacement.
That's the thing... I dumped a qt of lucas in as well as MOS2 to hopefully slow it down. I don't like lucas, but if there is something that it's good for, is a situation like this. Probably leaning on more just keep driving and buy a new truck soon. I am hard pressed to say this but, maybe it's still residual from the previous timing chain failure. I bought it that way, so for all i know it was like that for 100K miles and there is metal all caked to the pan. Putting metal out for 30K miles with no development of noises, and with that much metal and still not having grenaded is just odd.. Should get the UOA results friday.
 
Messages
17,041
Location
...
Have you considered dropping the pan if it's not too much trouble? Would the additives be loosening up old debris from the previous failure?
 

tcrs_circuit

Thread starter
Messages
33
Location
Palmdale, CA
Originally Posted by PimTac
Have you considered dropping the pan if it's not too much trouble? Would the additives be loosening up old debris from the previous failure?
I may do so. I only added the additives this OCI after seeing the metal unless you are talking about the add pack in the oil... I guess that it possible though. when doing the timing, the engine was VERY clean. only light varnish.
 
Top