Member "Dnewton3"....I got a oil question?

[Ponch]

I figured that I would make this question "public" on this forum...since many of us members still might be under the impression that "synthetic is always best"... but YOU have had real world experience in your duramax with dino HDEO's with stellar results..since joining this forum and also viewing you and "Arkapigs" used oil analysis in your duramax pickups's with even 10w30 oils in these engines...I have been quite surprised just how well these oils performed! But I want you if you could to cover some topics that most "synthetic" oil manufacturers claim is reason to spend the extra dollars for their synthetic oil over their conventional oils...

From what I have learned from you dave is that the ONLY two benefits a "synthetic" oil is good enough to spend the extra cash for whether be a group 3,4,or 5, is pour point/cold starting... should you live in a region cold enough for this...AND extended drain intervals...way beyond a typical OLM change notification around 9-11,000 miles which duramax engines often reach. I also have been educated by you on the "candle theory" regarding heat in which if you pass your finger through a candle very quickly...you will not get burned..hence the argument for "synthetic being able to handle heat better" than dino counterparts...and if I understand that theory correctly....as long as any engine regardless of being turbo,diesel or gas...as long as adequate flow and pressure is present..then any oil will do? So other then the top two reason's that you gave me about cold starting, and extended intervals...are us BITOG members missing anything else that a synthetic could offer? Companies like redline claim their group 5 oils offer excellent protection against engines which run very high oil temps....and others claim "cleaner engines" and more MPG with their synthetics. Please educate me and many other members on here dave. Thanks! -PONCHO

 

[UNC151]

 

[Ponch]

"2010 FX4" what does that mean?? LOL!

 

[UNC151]

Originally Posted By: Ponch
"2010 FX4" what does that mean?? LOL!

Just me in the peanut gallery sitting back to watch the show

 

[chubbs1]

I will chime in here because you covered most reasons to use Grp. 3,4,5. I can add a factor of peace of mind that your engine is being protected "better" and placebo affect has a lot to do with using syn. oils. Years ago (probably 25 or so) strides were being made in the refining/additive process, SOME oils became much better than others and it made a big difference to put a better oil in your engine because the quality of grp.1 was not so great. With oils nowadays, the ones made by the majors for example, the gap is smaller. Better base-stocks and additives are used all around and the blending technologies have made many conventional oils very good and unless you want to use oil for ext. drain, racing, very cold climates (as you mentioned), conventional oil is a very good choice in most driving applications. Mostly it is peace of mind for 98% of people (me included), the other 2% may actually need synthetic.

 

[Ponch]

I figured that "2010 FX4"....I am waiting for dave's comment/reply back...knowing him he is probably typing two days worth of info back to me as we speak! VERY INFORMATIVE!

 

[dnewton3]

First of all, I'm certainly not the only person able to answer these questions; many informed people here. Some of them agree with me, some don't. You should decide for yourself what information seems credible and what opinions seem well founded.

That being said, I think you have a good understanding of the two consistent benefits of syn's; really cold temps and really long OCIs. These are real world conditions that some of us may see often. And for many of us, we don't ever see the e-x-t-r-e-m-e cold I speak of, nor choose the extended OCIs. Therefore, the benefits are moot for many of us.

I will also say that extreme conditions such as LONG periods of EXTREME use such as racing can show benefits for synthetics. However, I typically begrudgingly acknowledge this attribute because it so very rarely extends benefits to us diesel "daily use, work truck, camper pulling" guys.

A few years ago, there was an article in CarCraft magazine where they did an engine build, and then ran three different fluids for testing. IIRC, a 20w-50, a 10w30, and a xW-30 syn (cannot recall if it was 5w or 10w). The thick oil posted the lowest power numbers; no big surprise as pressure from the thick oil also represents the greatest resistance to flow; it consumes lot so power to pump thick oil. The conventional lighter grade did well; made more power. The syn light grade did the "best" in that it had the highest power numbers. But, what also really stood out, is that these power differences only amounted to about 7hp (IIRC?) at max rpm. That power level was around 400hp or so? So 7 hp only represents 1.5% increase in power. (Please understand, I'm doing this by memory, but I suspect my numbers are reasonably true, if not completely accurate - I'm not inclined to dig through three years of magazines in the closet to find that article). At the lower "moderate" mid-rpm levels the differences were difficult to distinguish, and at low rpm (such as where a diesel typically operates) I doubt there was any statistical difference at all. I cannot recall the exact numbers, but what I gleaned from the test was that light grade oils are worth more power; ironic that most racer guys tend to pick thicker oils! Further, the major power gain came from moving to a lighter grade more so than using the syn. Also, if you were to compare a conventional to syn at the same lube grade, I'll bet the power advantage might be 1%? (I "learned" the concept well, even if I cannot recall the exact power numbers.)

So, yes, products such as RL, RP, Amsoil, Mobil 1 can be of benefit, but only if you rev your engine to the moon, and are looking for the last extra three or five HP in a drag race. And don't forget that these type "drag race" (or sled pull or mud-bog) engines are made for nearly singular purpose. And they often get torn down more frequently. And, they value the competitive edge over all other things, including cost. LET'S BE CLEAR - SYN'S CAN BE OF POWER BENEFIT, BUT ONLY IF YOU OPERATE AT THOSE EXTREMES FOR A SIGNIFICNT AMOUNT OF THE TOTAL OPERATIONAL TIMEFRAME. And yes, I think the ultra hot temps of racing might be a reason to consider syns; if you operate at the fringe of super hot all the time, then syn might be worth the cost, especially in competition. As I recall, the current Corvette spec's syn, and comes with syn from the factory. It can be of benefit if racing your car every weekend at the autocross or car club. But does grandpa need "extra protection" of syn when driving the 'Vette to see the grandkids at the ball game? NO!

I cannot speak for other people, but I'm not inclined to pay 3x more money for synthetics, to gain 1-2% power at WOT, when all I'm doing is taking my family on vacation pulling my travel trailer, especially when my "normal" OCI and temperature zones do NOT necessitate any extraordinary oil. My conventional oil does a fantastic job for a very fair price, especially when I find it on sale. I'm not trying to derail the topic, but right now you can get Delvac 1300 for $6/gallon with the rebate. For a Dmax, that's about $23 for a complete O/FCI. Contrast that to the $90 of PAO with a premium filter. That's a cost factor of 3.5x! For what; a syn oil I'll never get cold enough, nor drive far enough, nor run at WOT for more than a few seconds passing someone going uphill? I'm supposed to believe the marketing hype that I "need" a syn costing 350% more money for 1% more power over a period of 20 seconds once a month in my "normal" life?

I find myself living a pragmatic life; that is where my "opinion" comes from. Synthetics offer an advantage for a very small fraction of us, and only when used at extremes of use.

 

[daves87rs]

Very true...regardless whether it is car or truck, today's engines will pretty much outlast the rest of the car anyways.

Besides the crazy whether here, It is getting hard to justify a synthetic with my driving, besides that warm and fuzzy feeling...

 

[Ponch]

As I expected...a very indepth answer from mr.newton. Thanks dave. Looks like I should go stock up on delvac aye??

 

[slickrocko1]

dnewton;

Very well thought out argument for using the best oil/cost per useage. Like you I drive a diesel pickup, and use it to tow my horses around. ( 18,000 lbs loaded!) I have noticed that in the summer, (I live in the high desert), the EGT's are lower, and the engine temps are lower, when using my synthetic oil in both my gassers, and my diesel. I feel that the lower temps justify the premium I must pay for premium oils and fluids. I have changed my differentials, power steering, and since my Dodge uses synthetic ATF anyway, am now fully synthetic. I note this as it may be that those of us in the hotter locales, may benefit from switching to synthetics. BTW, I do an oil change at 8000 as I have found that the soot levels in my diesel have polluted the oil to the level it must be changed. ( I change my filters on the Cummins at 4,000 miles like clock work, I also change my fuel filter at that time) I do support your version of cost versus value recieved as you stated. I believe in a gasser, it would be a waste to change synthetics at normal oil change interval recommended by advertising and some manufacturers. Changing oil at 3000 miles is just advertising and marketing.

Steve

 

[daman]

My fingers hurt just reading,,well most of it..

 

[Gokhan]

Also, it's very important to realize that for most people synthetic oils do not allow longer oil-change intervals. It's true that they have slightly better base stocks and slightly lower NOAC volatility, but this is only a small factor in determining the oil-change interval. Additive package, oil filter being used (always a difficult compromise between filtering efficiency and filter restriction due to blockage), how easy the contaminants accumulate (wear metals, especially the combustion byproducts, fuel, water, etc.) in your engine are usually the dominating factors over base stocks and volatility.

I would use synthetic oil in these situations:

(1) Specifically recommended by the manufacturer. Note that this is for mostly warranty purposes.

(2) Equivalent grade is not available as conventional oil. For example, if you are living in a cold climate, and you must use an xW-40 grade oil, for winter use, 0W-40 and 5W-40 are not available as conventional oil.

(3) Specific situations and engines, where one could see benefits from using synthetic oil. But these situations and engines are usually rare. For example a very hot-running engine may benefit from the lower volatility and more robust base stocks of synthetic oil. Similarly a very high-shear engine may also benefit from more robust base stocks and less amount of viscosity modifiers present in synthetics, but to actually benefit from it, you would be not overstretching the cold - hot viscosity difference, such as by using 0W-xx oils or even 5W-xx oils, which likely still have a good amount of viscosity modifiers and therefore don't have the same shear resistance, even if they are synthetic. So, in these rare cases, synthetic oils might, and that's only a might, allow you longer oil-change intervals.

Bottom line is, as most people say here, no oil type or brand is perfect, and most high-quality oils will virtually work in any engine, regardless of type, as long as you don't use a hot viscosity that is too thin for your engine (such as doing the mistake of using xW-20 oil in an engine that requires xW-30 or, even worse, xW-40 oil) or you don't use gasoline-engine oil, which lack soot dispersants and other important additives for diesels, in a diesel engine.

 

[doitmyself]

I have complemented Dnewton for his stance several times. He keeps our discussions well grounded and he deserves a round of applause:

Not to get off topic too much, but would it be safe to say that with other fluids (transmission, differential), it HAS been shown that synthetics are of benefit? Longer lasting, better wear properties, better MPG, better heat properties?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
as this is the HDEO Forum I am perhaps one of BITOG's Members with considerable experience - years and distance - in this area

Mineral HDEOs work well at the Manufacturer's prescribed OCIs and perhaps beyond with the careful use of used oil analysis! I have used them in various formulations (from D? onwards)and viscosities since the late 1950s - in all sorts of diesel and petrol engines

In the last fifteen or so years this has been my experience with my own high speed heavy diesel engines - Detroit Series 60s@ 500hp! Mainly used in Interstate work at 250000kms per annum. At around $50 000 each there is little room for error!

Lubricant condemnation levels (single pass used oil analysis):
1- Soot - 3% (3.5% with synthetic via Oil Co)
2- Fe - 150ppm
3- Viscosity boundaries (>40% to 4- TBN 1 (D4739)

Manufacturer Recommended OCIs
15kkms using correct spec lubricants

Perfomance (limits reached in brackets and all used oil analysis trended for each engine:

Mineral 15w40
Maximum OCI continually possible
25kkms (1,3 or both)
Maximum achieved
30kkm (1,2,3)

Semi-synthetic 15w40
Maximum OCI continually possible
35kkms (1,3 or both)
Maximum achieved
45kkm (1,2,3,4)

Synthetic 5W-40 (centrifuge installed)
Maximum OCI continually possible
90kkms (1,2)
Maximum achieved
130kkm (1,2)

These results are from many of my engines. I strongly believe that the use of the synthetic HDEO significantly reduced wear valve train components. Probably due to perfect viscosity retention

The pure economic benefit with the synthetic occurred at 70kkms OCI
The pure payback time for the centrifuge was around 3 years

The benefits to me were enhanced equipment availablity with less disruption for Drives and other Staff

Many people waste their money on "exotic" lubricants and/or do not quantify their results!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
doitmyself - My experience with synthetic gear oils over many years and many millions of kms shows many benefits over their mineral brothers

In the end I did not change my gearbox (15-18spd RoadRanger) or diff (Eaton/Rockwell) lubricants unless needed. The first change was always done before 2kkms and then the lubricanst was monitored by used oil analysis thereafter

At 1m kms they were still within the Manufacturer's condemnation limits. This was same result over my entire Fleet

Benefits were in much better bearing and seal life!

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Many people waste their money on "exotic" lubricants and/or do not quantify their results!


How very true.

I never want people to think that there are not good, if not excellent, applications where synthetics can reach or surpass your ROI. I just find that operations such as what Doug does are the minority here on BITOG. Some of our members use syn's, blindly thinking that they will provide "better" performance under all conditions. Some of these folks use syn's at less than OEM OCI intervals where even conventional oils are not fully tasked.

The whole point should be to use ANY lubricant up to your condemnation level(s). If one artificially sets an OCI limit with no regard for lubricant operating parameters, he/she is likely to either grossly under-utilize or over-run their lubricant/filter package.

As usual, Doug shows how to truly manage one's fleet. There is no whimsy present; each decision is analyzed before application, and reviewed for success/failure afterward. He is managing the OCI by tracking lube characteristics, and keeping them in sight, as they near the condemnation level. You can see where the syn's outperform the others due to greater distance, not less wear on contamination, per se.

For most folks here, using an HDEO in their light duty diesel truck, the OCI is either way too short (the most common error) or unknowingly too long (the rare occurence). They pick a lube, then choose an OCI, with no understanding of, or regard for, how the lube/filter package should compliment their operating and maintenance pattern.

 

[Bambam]

Thanks you Dave & Doug for your knowledge and insight,you two are a great asset to this site!

 

[JXW]

Ponch I have been using syn oils for over 20 years now. I have had conventional oil put in both my bike and cars over the years when I expected to get syn oils. On my bike I had some type of bulk HD oil put in it and I could tell within 5 miles something was wrong. The bike ran hot, was losing power and exhibited overall poor operating charateristics. This is a machine with a basic two cylinder air cooled engine, okay? I also had a same experience with a car that was filled with castrol GTX not the Castrol Syntec that I was using. Within 5 miles I called my wife and questioned her on the oil used to find that conventional was used by mistake.

Some people might eat 10 donuts a day or smoke two packs a day and live for 70 years--that doesn't mean they are healthy right? Same argument from me on conventional vs. syn. You can get by on conventional but syn is better all the way around. I know this from my real world experience, mileages driven and different applications (bikes, cars, trucks and tractors).

Conventional oils are better than ever but syn still leads them all hands down.

 

[Jim Allen]

Very interesting thread and the moral is:

One size does not fit all.

In Doug's example above, I took away that soot levels are the major limitation in diesels using any oil. That makes filtration the key to any long oil run in a diesel. In the third example, centrifugal filtration is what likely carried that oil so far. The syn's viscosity held longer, likely against fuel dilution and natural shearing but without enhanced filtration, it would have reached a soot condemnation at lest at the point where the semi syn faded away.

 

[Bambam]

Originally Posted By: JXW
Ponch I have been using syn oils for over 20 years now. I have had conventional oil put in both my bike and cars over the years when I expected to get syn oils. On my bike I had some type of bulk HD oil put in it and I could tell within 5 miles something was wrong. The bike ran hot, was losing power and exhibited overall poor operating charateristics. This is a machine with a basic two cylinder air cooled engine, okay? I also had a same experience with a car that was filled with castrol GTX not the Castrol Syntec that I was using. Within 5 miles I called my wife and questioned her on the oil used to find that conventional was used by mistake.

Some people might eat 10 donuts a day or smoke two packs a day and live for 70 years--that doesn't mean they are healthy right? Same argument from me on conventional vs. syn. You can get by on conventional but syn is better all the way around. I know this from my real world experience, mileages driven and different applications (bikes, cars, trucks and tractors).

Conventional oils are better than ever but syn still leads them all hands down.




Two engines affected within minutes of changing the oil??? I'm not believing this 100% my friend.