Member "Dnewton3"....I got a oil question?

[doitmyself]

JXW, in your original post here you stated:
Quote:
syn is better all the way around. I know this from my real world experience, mileages driven and different applications (bikes, cars, trucks and tractors).
Conventional oils are better than ever but syn still leads them all hands down.


But in your latest posts you mostly refer to severe conditions:
Quote:
"Synthetic lubricants, however, are manufactured specifically to stand up to the severe conditions under which conventional oils might falter." In your latest posts, you are talking of a "supercharged 4 cylinder, very cold weather,many high performance vehicles, and folks that run on a track."


Is it your stance that because synthetics perform better in severe conditions, that you also get better results using it in "normal/average" conditions? Or, are you saying that just for severe conditions, synthetics are better.

 

[JXW]

Very well put question: My stance is that syn oils are better for severe service, high speed driving, cold weather, short trips wihtout proper warm up, the wife driving away at 70 mph 30 seconds after starting the car.

Oh yeah, riding an air cooled two wheeler across the high plains at 80mph for 550 miles for a coupel of days.

At the end of the day I am in total agreement that the gap has closed between conventional and synthetic. My experiences go back 20 years when the gap was much larger. Everybody has to recognize the type of service they operate in, type of duty the vehicle does and make a rational decision that will deliver value back.

 

[Gokhan]

JXW, when you were making the conventional vs. synthetic comparisons, what viscosity grade you were using with each type of oil?

5W-40 HDEO has certainly significantly lower viscosity than 15w40 HDEO in both cold- and hot-engine operation, and it would be no surprise that it would give a few percent better MPG.

 

[JXW]

My comparisons were all of the same grade, and as mentioned in earlier posts, this took in the early 90's.

The Harley Twin Cam I had in 2005 was running syn 20w-50 and was switched over to some type of conventional oil I suppose in the same grade as it was from a dealer. This instance, the bike exhibited symptoms I had not know before as it had always had syn from day one. At the end of the 70 mile trip at about 75mph the whole way it was throwing so much heat I almost thought it was related to the carb repairs just completed.

I have ridden other bikes in highway and traffic with conventional oil 20w-50 and boy do they run hotter than syn each and every way you can think of .

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: JXW
My comparisons were all of the same grade, and as mentioned in earlier posts, this took in the early 90's.

The Harley Twin Cam I had in 2005 was running syn 20w-50 and was switched over to some type of conventional oil I suppose in the same grade as it was from a dealer. This instance, the bike exhibited symptoms I had not know before as it had always had syn from day one. At the end of the 70 mile trip at about 75mph the whole way it was throwing so much heat I almost thought it was related to the carb repairs just completed.

I have ridden other bikes in highway and traffic with conventional oil 20w-50 and boy do they run hotter than syn each and every way you can think of .

20W-50 is not a commonly used viscosity grade these days, and people don't buy it with fuel economy in mind. It's mainly used for better protection in older cars or race engines. Being the maximally thickest viscosity grade for engine oils, I would guess that there is a lot of viscosity variation for the 20W-50 viscosity grade among different oil brands and types. The synthetic 20W-50 you had probably had much lower viscosity than the conventional 20W-50. It's all about viscosity and there is nothing magic about synthetics. In fact, if you had used a conventional HDEO 15w40 instead, chances are that its viscosity would not be much lower than that of the synthetic 20W-50, and you would see the same fuel-economy and cold-start benefits and probably similar protection, without the added cost.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: JXW
I have ridden other bikes in highway and traffic with conventional oil 20w-50 and boy do they run hotter than syn each and every way you can think of .


Once again straying off topic a tiny bit......This statement is one "real" advantage that I "want" to believe about synthetics.....that they result in lower operating temps in air cooled engines.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: JXW
My comparisons were all of the same grade, and as mentioned in earlier posts, this took in the early 90's.

The Harley Twin Cam I had in 2005 was running syn 20w-50 and was switched over to some type of conventional oil I suppose in the same grade as it was from a dealer. This instance, the bike exhibited symptoms I had not know before as it had always had syn from day one. At the end of the 70 mile trip at about 75mph the whole way it was throwing so much heat I almost thought it was related to the carb repairs just completed.

I have ridden other bikes in highway and traffic with conventional oil 20w-50 and boy do they run hotter than syn each and every way you can think of .


" ... and as mentioned in earlier posts, this took in the early 90's"
1990's? You believe that your subjective observations from nearly 20 years ago is relevant in the discussion of today's HDEO conventional's and syns?

You "suppose" that the dealer used conventional, or you "suppose" that the oil was of the same grade? Sounds to me like you don't really know what was used in your bike, but you've convinced yourself the only possible cause was conventional, and the only miracle cure was syn.

The human condition is very "flexible" in it's perception. How "hot" is hot? How "far" is far? That is why we strive to quantify and qualify information; we need accurate measurements to reasonably compare/contrast all manner of things. I'm not doubting your perception of the events. But I don't see credible evidence to substantiate your claims. Did you install a pryometer on the exhaust or head? Did you measure the oil temp with a quality gage (not that temp dipstick that HD sells to put in the oil tank)? Did you repeat the same route on the same day under the same conditions after an OCI to see how conventional and syn performed?

My offer still stands. I'll meet up with you (and we can invite Ponch since he's probably mid-way between us location wise) and let's run several back to back blind study experiments this spring and see how accurate your "seat-heat thermometer" and "posterior-dyno" really are. You ride, I'll change oil, and Ponch can be the arbiter. Let's see how accurately we can discern oils from the seat of a bike, or the seat of a truck for that matter, in normal every day life.

 

[Bambam]

My offer stands for fininacial aide.

 

[JXW]

I stand corrected. My observations are not relevant to today's HDEO and this forum. Thank you for policing the board and presenting your position in a fair and diplomatic fashion.

I realize that what I have said and done from past experience with motor oil is strictly amatuer and should only be taken as such. One day perhaps I will ascend to a level where I can keep the same company with elite people like yourself. Until then I will maintain a position of silence and remorse for having stepped into the ring with a heavyweight when I am just a mere featherweight.

 

[Bambam]

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: JXW
I stand corrected. My observations are not relevant to today's HDEO and this forum. Thank you for policing the board and presenting your position in a fair and diplomatic fashion.

I realize that what I have said and done from past experience with motor oil is strictly amatuer and should only be taken as such. One day perhaps I will ascend to a level where I can keep the same company with elite people like yourself. Until then I will maintain a position of silence and remorse for having stepped into the ring with a heavyweight when I am just a mere featherweight.


Don't take this so hard, man! It's just a forum for oil nerds! You're worthy, your'e worthy!

Most of us walked in here thinkin' we knew something and found we had a lot to learn. It can be a little hard on the ego at the start but you'll walk away knowing more. You'll learn that the anecdotal, seat-o-the-pants stuff just doesn't carry all that much weight in this crowd. Physics are physics and when you cross a certain line, one of us pocket-protector-wearing, belt-calcualator-carrying nerds is going to going to raise an ink-stained finger and say, "But...!"

Stick around! I got a pocket protector with your name on it! ( : < )

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Don't take this so hard, man! It's just a forum for oil nerds! You're worthy, your'e worthy!


I agree absolutely. I've struggled for years (and still do) to keep focused upon what advantages synthetic actually offers. I've also struggled (and still do) with focusing on where those advantages are realized.

With the price of synthetic, especially up here, it's very tempting to try to convince oneself that it's "so much better" than the conventional offerings, and "how much better" one group of base stocks is than another. The value for extended drains and certain extreme conditions is fairly obvious for where they are appropriate.

Heck, synthetic "might" protect a little "better" than a quality conventional. However, that "might" is certainly lost in the error bars of any normal measurement we might undertake over a standard OCI.

I wish that Royal Purple or Mobil 1 or Delvac 1 were so much better for my vehicle. My experience in fleet usage shows that the conventional will do the trick just as easily and at a lower cost. I might feel better about having the fancy stuff in the pan, but the engine doesn't care, and feeling better about something, in this case, is simply self-delusion.

I like synthetics. They're fantastic products, without a doubt. For my applications, though, I "need" them about as much as I "need" a new Bentley to go get groceries.

With the reference to motorbikes, those are an interesting lot. My old Yamaha used Yamalube (which some here, I've read, consider a so-so product) for every oil change. Even using a possibly so-so conventional product, in an air-cooled application, driven hard, my engine has outlasted my carb components, which are now obsolete and impossible to find.

Gee, I wish I spent $10 a litre on the synthetic, right?

If lube related failures due to conventional were commonplace, I could see the argument. That doesn't happen, though.

By the way, I've survived an entire Saskatchewan winter without using a drop of synthetic oil. My engine started every time (even using Quaker State 10w30 conventional), and didn't even make any rebellious sounds. My only acknowledgement of the latest cold snap was to drop down to 5w30 for the last oil change.

Oh, and I run a turbo, too. I must really be playing with fire.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: JXW
I stand corrected. My observations are not relevant to today's HDEO and this forum. Thank you for policing the board and presenting your position in a fair and diplomatic fashion.

I realize that what I have said and done from past experience with motor oil is strictly amatuer and should only be taken as such. One day perhaps I will ascend to a level where I can keep the same company with elite people like yourself. Until then I will maintain a position of silence and remorse for having stepped into the ring with a heavyweight when I am just a mere featherweight.



I presume you're being sarcastic.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else. Your opinions are based upon your perceptions.

What I am calling to question is that your observations are aparently based upon situations from 20 years ago. That is simply not relevant today. Syns have made some minor improvemetns, and dinos have made HUGE leaps forward. What I am questioning is the basis of you perceptions. It does not sound to me like you have any credible baseline for your frame of reference. Most of us "hard core" BITOGers like real data and evidentiary proof. Opinions are fine, but they leave much room for error. We want numbers. Temps, particle counts, used oil analysis, dyno runs, etc.

I am NOT taunting you. I truly would be willing to meet with you for the joy of an experiment. Perhaps you'll learn something? Perhaps I'm wrong (and I'll be the first one to admit that I can learn from others). I am not in a position to state that you are wrong, but you have not convinced me that you are right. If you want to convince me, and others, you'll have to be able to do more than just claim some "seat-meter" observations from 10 or 20 years ago.

Synthetics are awesome products that do fill a void that only they can. But they are not a one-size-fits-all answer for everything. They do provide some advantages that only they can produce, but they are so very often at the fringes of extreme, that precious few people ever operate in a pattern that would touch those boundries. EXTREME temps, severe racing apps, and extended OCIs are where you'll see synthetics shine. If not in those arenas, you're wasting money.

At its core, you've claimed you can tell a dino from a syn from the seat of your Harley Davidson, in five minutes. I find that incredibly hard to believe. I've owned two Harleys, and now have a GL1800. I'm just as additicted to the ICE as anyone. I used to race go-karts in college. I've done my own engine tear-downs and rebuilds. I'll admit that I'm not an expert at anything, but I'm at least knowledgeable enough to participate in the conversation. This could be said of a LOT of the gearheads here, as well as engineers and tribologists, etc.

Finally, if I've offended you, then I owe you an apology. If you're around much, you'll see that I'm hard on folks. Not be be in their face personally, but to ask the hard questions. To get people to think. There is merrit in debate; it makes one challenge not only others, but oneself. There are some members here that I completely disagree with, but have respect for and would willingly shakes hand with. We can agree to disagree. Some of my most adamant debates with Gary Allan have been over filters, but by gosh, when we met, and shared beer around the campfire, it was a great joy!

And just for the record, I am a recovering synthaholic. I know exactly where you're at, because I was there once, too.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Can't really say if syn lubes are a better thing in transmission or diffs, but when the manufacturer extended my warranty on diffs and transmission to 750,000 miles from 500,000 miles if I kept synthetics in them, it seemed like a no brainer.

 

[Bambam]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Can't really say if syn lubes are a better thing in transmission or diffs, but when the manufacturer extended my warranty on diffs and transmission to 750,000 miles from 500,000 miles if I kept synthetics in them, it seemed like a no brainer.


I think synthetics in differentials,transmissions and in some applications,transfer cases is a wise choice. Most people don't pay attention to those things. the out of sight out of mind syndrome.

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
as this is the HDEO Forum I am perhaps one of BITOG's Members with considerable experience - years and distance - in this area

Mineral HDEOs work well at the Manufacturer's prescribed OCIs and perhaps beyond with the careful use of used oil analysis! I have used them in various formulations (from D? onwards)and viscosities since the late 1950s - in all sorts of diesel and petrol engines

In the last fifteen or so years this has been my experience with my own high speed heavy diesel engines - Detroit Series 60s@ 500hp! Mainly used in Interstate work at 250000kms per annum. At around $50 000 each there is little room for error!......................................................................................


The benefits to me were enhanced equipment availablity with less disruption for Drives and other Staff

Many people waste their money on "exotic" lubricants and/or do not quantify their results!

Doug, in your high speed heavy diesel engines what was your strategy for coolant changes?