Media flow resistance

[Cokeboy]

The 5.7L 4th generation Hemi V8 is quite sensitive to oil pressure including other engines.
Royal Purple spin on is 100% micro glass fiber filter media.
Fram Ultra & Mobil 1 extended are identical filters with combination cellulose/ synethic blend media according to Champ Labs that manufactures the three referenced filters in addition to another 23 other private label filters.

Question:
Which filter media has the lowest flow resistance glass or blend?

 

[goodtimes]

I get to be first and say the Utra is all synthetic, and not made at Champ Labs. Flow is sort of hard by the feel method, or think method, try to look for specs. Usually synthetic flows better/area. The amount of media of course also determines total resistance to flow.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I get to be first and say the Utra is all synthetic, and not made at Champ Labs. Flow is sort of hard by the feel method, or think method, try to look for specs. Usually synthetic flows better/area. The amount of media of course also determines total resistance to flow.


Champ labs is Fram basically.

 

[MinamiKotaro]

Don't worry about flow. The only way a filter wouldn't flow enough is if they forgot to drill holes in the center tube.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I get to be first and say the Utra is all synthetic, and not made at Champ Labs. Flow is sort of hard by the feel method, or think method, try to look for specs. Usually synthetic flows better/area. The amount of media of course also determines total resistance to flow.


Champ labs is Fram basically.


I am pretty certain the Fram Ultra still isn't made at Champ labs, which is what I said. All three filters he was concerned about as to flow, are made by Fram now.
The other thing besides media flow is bypass valve flow. I did have one car that seemed to rattle using the filters with the small round bypass hole with the little plate that opens to the inside. Some bigger engines need more bypass when they need bypass. Fram has a nice bypass setup on their filters.

 

[SEMI_287]

It's not so much oil pressure as it is oil viscosity. Use any quality 20 weight and filter.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
Fram Ultra & Mobil 1 extended are identical filters with combination cellulose/ synethic blend media according to Champ Labs ...


As already said, the Ultra is full synthetic. The Mobil 1 is not, but is a blend media.

A full synthetic will flow better than other media. An oil filter is only about 1/15th as restrictive to flow as an engine's oiling system. With a positive displacement oil pump, it's not going to care if one filter is +/- a few PSI delta-p over another filter.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I get to be first and say the Utra is all synthetic, and not made at Champ Labs. Flow is sort of hard by the feel method, or think method, try to look for specs. Usually synthetic flows better/area. The amount of media of course also determines total resistance to flow.


Champ labs is Fram basically.


I am pretty certain the Fram Ultra still isn't made at Champ labs, which is what I said. All three filters he was concerned about as to flow, are made by Fram now.
The other thing besides media flow is bypass valve flow. I did have one car that seemed to rattle using the filters with the small round bypass hole with the little plate that opens to the inside. Some bigger engines need more bypass when they need bypass. Fram has a nice bypass setup on their filters.


If you look at both their websites they each list some of the same manufacturing locations. But Motorking would need to confirm if they are made in the same facility.

 

[Cokeboy]

The Champ lab representative said Fram Filter Co and the 26 private label filters manufactured at Champ labs to customer specifications are all owned by one individual located in New Zealand. When Fram was sold by Honeywell about two years ago to the New Zealand individual some of the Champ and Fram facilities were consolidated.
The fram Ultra is now actually manufactured at the Champ Lab plant, not the original Frame facility. The Fram Ultra incorporates steel filter media ends compared to Fram extra guard and tough guard labels which incorporates fiber ends.

Champ also manufactures the Mobil 1 extended filter.
Representative also indicated that Fram Ultra label and Mobil 1 extended were identical filters.

Still does not answer the question of which filter media has the most flow resistance
cellulose, (100% wood fiber paper),cellulose/glass blend, 100% micro glass, or even polyester filter media rated at 300F.
Would guess that micro glass fiber has the greatest flow resistance because the media must be thicker to tap the particles by intrapment method(particles traped through fiber nest) rather than impingment method used by cellulose(particles traped on surface.

Also folks that have changed to Royal Purple( RP) filter which is 100% micro glass indicated an increase in oil pressure at start up cold idle engine speed compared to previous cellulose paper type. This result would indicate the 100% micro glass has greater flow resistance than paper media.

Champ Labs also indicated the RP is the only 100% micro glass media filter manufactured by Champ Labs.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
....Representative also indicated that Fram Ultra label and Mobil 1 extended were identical filters.....

Really? That's interesting, not heard that one before. Would seem to dispute previous information of Champ made M1EP postings here, as compared to the Ultra. Like to see some confirmation on that claim. Perhaps the M1 design has changed very recently?

Many/most M1EPs have used Champ thread end bypass. Otoh, all Ultras use dome end bypass.

 

[Nutshell]

Amsoil is made there as well. Not sure if they still use the Donaldson media

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
The fram Ultra is now actually manufactured at the Champ Lab plant, not the original Frame facility.


Do you know when they moved the Ultras?

 

[Hessam]

Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
The Champ lab representative said Fram Filter Co and the 26 private label filters manufactured at Champ labs to customer specifications are all owned by one individual located in New Zealand. When Fram was sold by Honeywell about two years ago to the New Zealand individual some of the Champ and Fram facilities were consolidated.
The fram Ultra is now actually manufactured at the Champ Lab plant, not the original Frame facility. The Fram Ultra incorporates steel filter media ends compared to Fram extra guard and tough guard labels which incorporates fiber ends.

Champ also manufactures the Mobil 1 extended filter.
Representative also indicated that Fram Ultra label and Mobil 1 extended were identical filters.

Still does not answer the question of which filter media has the most flow resistance
cellulose, (100% wood fiber paper),cellulose/glass blend, 100% micro glass, or even polyester filter media rated at 300F.
Would guess that micro glass fiber has the greatest flow resistance because the media must be thicker to tap the particles by intrapment method(particles traped through fiber nest) rather than impingment method used by cellulose(particles traped on surface.

Also folks that have changed to Royal Purple( RP) filter which is 100% micro glass indicated an increase in oil pressure at start up cold idle engine speed compared to previous cellulose paper type. This result would indicate the 100% micro glass has greater flow resistance than paper media.

Champ Labs also indicated the RP is the only 100% micro glass media filter manufactured by Champ Labs.


The TRD filters are also 100% synthetic micro glass media filters. The RP and TRD filters are virtually the same exact filter, except for the TRD's having the added nut on the top of the filter.
http://www.trdusa.com/filters.html

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
Fram Ultra & Mobil 1 extended are identical filters with combination cellulose/ synethic blend media according to Champ Labs ...


As already said, the Ultra is full synthetic. The Mobil 1 is not, but is a blend media.

A full synthetic will flow better than other media. An oil filter is only about 1/15th as restrictive to flow as an engine's oiling system. With a positive displacement oil pump, it's not going to care if one filter is +/- a few PSI delta-p over another filter.




I DO NOT appreciate this line of thinking. Please keep it to yourself. And go ahead and tell Fram racing that their filters have no place, since as you said, the engine is not going to care about a restrictive oil filter........

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
I DO NOT appreciate this line of thinking. Please keep it to yourself. And go ahead and tell Fram racing that their filters have no place, since as you said, the engine is not going to care about a restrictive oil filter........


OK, so you disagree and tell the poster to keep quiet ?

As a self proclaimed seeker of the truth, do you honestly believe that a few psi difference (if that) in filter DP is going to have a material effect on the engine ?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
Also folks that have changed to Royal Purple( RP) filter which is 100% micro glass indicated an increase in oil pressure at start up cold idle engine speed compared to previous cellulose paper type. This result would indicate the 100% micro glass has greater flow resistance than paper media.

Champ Labs also indicated the RP is the only 100% micro glass media filter manufactured by Champ Labs.


If the oil pressure sender is on the pump side of the filter, your premise would be correct.

If it's on the engine side of the filter, the opposite would be true.

 

[slybunda]

So which side is the pressure sensor on? Does it measure pressure before or after the filter?

 

[Shannow]

pretty sure it's on the engine side, after the filter. Internet pics show it mounted pretty high on the block.

Given that the oil pump relief is on the pump, upstream of the filter, you wouldn't expect the filter to change the pressure on that side cold.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
Would guess that micro glass fiber has the greatest flow resistance because the media must be thicker to tap the particles by intrapment method(particles traped through fiber nest) rather than impingment method used by cellulose(particles traped on surface.


Nope, the full synthetic media flows the best. Your logic on why you think full synthetic micro glass media is restrictive is wrong. Go google to do some research and you'll find out why full synthetic media has less flow resistance and can still be very efficient and filtering oil.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Cokeboy
Also folks that have changed to Royal Purple( RP) filter which is 100% micro glass indicated an increase in oil pressure at start up cold idle engine speed compared to previous cellulose paper type. This result would indicate the 100% micro glass has greater flow resistance than paper media.

Champ Labs also indicated the RP is the only 100% micro glass media filter manufactured by Champ Labs.


If the oil pressure sender is on the pump side of the filter, your premise would be correct.

If it's on the engine side of the filter, the opposite would be true.


+1

I've used 4 or 5 different brand filters on my Z06 (which has digital oil and temperature gauges), and I saw no difference in oil pressure (with the same oil, at the same temperature and engine RPM) between any of those oil filters. The pressure sensor is located after the oil filter, and that's why I didn't see any pressure differences. Positive displacement oil pump still pushed the same volume through the engine even is the filter was a little more restrictive to flow.

If the sensor was before the oil filter, I might have seen a few PSI difference between them all.