MC FL-400S, Problem?

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
ZeeOSix - If ADBV function is impaired, how much oil is siphoned vs just drains back through the filter and pump? Even though the oil pump is positive displacement, the gears can not be a perfect fit.


Don't forget that some oil filters don't have a ADBV because they are mounted base up.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: tig1
However this article explains why a filter in the vertical position does not need a ADBV. In fact, some filter don't have a ADBV because of the position of the filter requirement on certain engines. Here's the link.

http://en.filtron.eu/site.php/site/menu?cat=79


They don't talk about when the filter is mounted vertically (base up) ABOVE the sump's oil level. If the filter is mounted above the oil level in the sump, any oil above that level will try to drain back to the sump due to gravity (ie, 'head pressure'). So even a filter that is vertical with base up still needs and ADBV.


No it won't. They didn't offer that explanation because it's not relevant.


Basic physics says it will. Whoever wrote that blurb you so much believe don't know the whole story. BOF's friend had a filter with a leaky ADBV. No other reason why since other filters didn't behave the same as this one when it was removed.

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
My friend changed the oil and filter on my F150 this AM. When he went to remove the oil filter (MC-FL400S) very little oil came out of the nipple and/or filter (less than an 1/8 of a cup). At every OCI quite a bit of oil comes out as soon as the seal is broke from the oil filter mounting base. I have never seen this happen before.

 

[WellOiled]

Tig1 - a filter mounted base up pretty much guarantees the filter will stay full of oil without an ADBV.

The oil above the filter can drain back toward the oil pump. The article you linked supports this argument.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
ZeeOSix - If ADBV function is impaired, how much oil is siphoned vs just drains back through the filter and pump? Even though the oil pump is positive displacement, the gears can not be a perfect fit.


If the oil pump gears were very tight, the drain back might not be as bad ... it might take days instead of overnight to drain back to the sump if the ADBV was leaking.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: tig1
However this article explains why a filter in the vertical position does not need a ADBV. In fact, some filter don't have a ADBV because of the position of the filter requirement on certain engines. Here's the link.

http://en.filtron.eu/site.php/site/menu?cat=79


They don't talk about when the filter is mounted vertically (base up) ABOVE the sump's oil level. If the filter is mounted above the oil level in the sump, any oil above that level will try to drain back to the sump due to gravity (ie, 'head pressure'). So even a filter that is vertical with base up still needs and ADBV.


No it won't. They didn't offer that explanation because it's not relevant.


Basic physics says it will. Whoever wrote that blurb you so much believe don't know the whole story. BOF's friend had a filter with a leaky ADBV. No other reason why since other filters didn't behave the same as this one when it was removed.

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
My friend changed the oil and filter on my F150 this AM. When he went to remove the oil filter (MC-FL400S) very little oil came out of the nipple and/or filter (less than an 1/8 of a cup). At every OCI quite a bit of oil comes out as soon as the seal is broke from the oil filter mounting base. I have never seen this happen before.


Sometimes friends opinions can be wrong. It's called an "Anti Drain Back Valve" Oil doesn't Drain uphill in engines. Some siphoning can ocure, but not from the filter. Notice It's not "Anti Siphon Back Valve". Cartridge filters prove that.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Tig1 - a filter mounted base up pretty much guarantees the filter will stay full of oil without an ADBV.

The oil above the filter can drain back toward the oil pump. The article you linked supports this argument.


Yes, I totally agree to that. If you wait hours, then when the filter is removed there won't be as much oil spilled, as if the filter is removed right after the engine is shut off. However the filter will remain filled with oil. My Fusion has a vertically mounted filter, however it's a cartridge and there is no ADBV in the system. Not a need for one.

Bottom line there is no ADBV problem with the OPs filter mentioned.

 

[WellOiled]

Tig1 - The Anti Drain Back Valve is appropriately named. Truth be known a good positive displacement oil pump that is stopped will reverse flow all be it one drop at a time using simple gravity. Pressure = rho Gh

 

[WellOiled]

Tig1 - so Ford decided not to use an ADBV on your engine. BlueOvalFitters engine and my engine were both specified to have ADBV equipped filters.

 

[WellOiled]

The FL400s and FL820s share similar design characteristics.

Both have silicone ADBV and thread end bypass valves.

The silicone ADBV doubles as a gasket between the filter element and the tapping plate.

If/when BOF cuts the filter open he may see the issue. Rough inlet holes, poorly molded ADBV, badly aligned ADBV and the list could go on. Or even a missing ADBV.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Tig1 - so Ford decided not to use an ADBV on your engine. BlueOvalFitters engine and my engine were both specified to have ADBV equipped filters.


Yep, Ford specs and ADBV for filters mounted as they are on most of their engines for a reason.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Sometimes friends opinions can be wrong. It's called an "Anti Drain Back Valve" Oil doesn't Drain uphill in engines.


It depends on how much head pressure is present from all the oil above the filter, and where the filter is located. If there is enough head pressure from gravity on the mass of the oil, it certainly could push some oil 'up hill'.

So in a case like that (and like BOF's friend's truck), the ADBV will prevents oil flowing back to the sump, even if the filter is mounted vertical with base up.

 

[MrQuackers]

Hey Z, was that you honking at me at the 205 entrance in Clackamas today?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Hey Z, was that you honking at me at the 205 entrance in Clackamas today?


Not me.

 

[WellOiled]

I would have honked because I like you sig line.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: WellOiled
I read the whole post. On a Ranger 4L V6 and a Motorcraft filter with a silicone ADBV, I get a lot of oil when first loosening the filter. It creates a mess. This one mounts mostly dome end down at an angle.

^^^^WellOiled, at EVERY OCI on my trucks engine, this is what would happen.^^^^ And yes, it does make a mess! When I would change my own oil on this truck with the 4.2, and my others I owned in the past, I would just loosen the filter enough to remove by hand. I would put a zip-lock bag over the filter to catch the oil, which was a lot.
When I watched my friend remove the oil filter today, there was hardly ANY oil at all that overflowed/drained from the filter and/or filter base plate nipple. I had NEVER seen this happen before, on this, or, any of the other engines as well.
The filter is at my friends house. I will get it before the weekend is over, or, Monday and cut it open.

 

[Garak]

tig1, I normally agree with the lack of a need for an ADBV is some of these engines. With this one, I wouldn't call the geometry an absolute lock on the matter. Also, I think we do have to look at ADBV function as something more than just working perfectly versus failed.

 

[WellOiled]

Before you cut it, look and see if there really is a silicone ADBV in place. If there is not one, you can get a new one for free. An obvious defect before cutting.

I am doing an experiment tomorrow morning. The Ranger is due for an oil change. In frustration with the FL820S, I put an AC Delco PF1250 on it. Another user said the combo valve ADBV function was non-existent after 3-5k miles and gave me a tip to check for it. I have not really noticed any startup rattle but the weather has been relatively warm.

I plan to remove the filter cold after sitting all night. If the valve is good I expect oil will flow out of the galleries, if not good, I expect very little Oil just like you observed. So I can have an immediate comparison, I plan to retighten the filter and run the engine for a few minutes. Shut it down and loosen the filter. This should make it rather obvious if there is ADBV function or not.

Good luck. BTW, I never heard back from Ford on the torn filter I reported on and the dialog made with the local dealer is gone too.

I was hopeful that problems were just related to FL820S. I am anxious to see your findings.

 

[WellOiled]

Garak - I agree some oil circuit configurations need the best ADBV function and some don't. Also the engine is not going to grenade if you don't have ADBV function.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
My friend changed the oil and filter on my F150 this AM. When he went to remove the oil filter (MC-FL400S) very little oil came out of the nipple and/or filter (less than an 1/8 of a cup). At every OCI quite a bit of oil comes out as soon as the seal is broke from the oil filter mounting base. I have never seen this happen before. Jokingly, he stated that the ADBV must be working very well. I told him there should have been some oil overflowing like it does always. My oil filter is at about an 7 to 8 o'clock position on the engine.
Has anyone ever seen this happen before? I plan on cutting the filter open to see if there are any defects in the filter.

Below is a pic of an 4.2 engine showing the oil filter location.

Yes with every combo valve filter I've ever used, whether Champ ecore or Napa Proselect. I even saw loss of BPV function as well as ADBV function with the NAPA PS on my wife's Mustang.

Link to my prior BITOG post on this experience

I have not experienced this with MC filters because I don't use MC filters on my vehicles. The oddball number of flutes vs. the end cap style oil filter wrenches I have takes them off my purchase list.

 

[Plawan]

The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.