Marbles in my crankcase? Every mechanic mystified. 2012 LS460 at 250k

Brandon Gatz

Brandon Gatz

Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
666
Location
Charlotte, NC
2012 Lexus LS460 AWD

Chatter Clapping at Cold Start, but not before 2 minutes. What's the fix?

250k on engine. Runs like a champ.

Since about 175k this car will start chattering after two minutes on a cold start, and not before 2 minutes. It will increase in sound level but then stop completely for a second, start chattering from low to high frequency, and repeat. After 5 minutes, the chatter clapping continues in frequency but decreases in noise level until disappearing completely when the engine is at operating temperature.

I have used only high-quality HM synthetics with OCIs between 7500 and 10k since acquiring the car at 121k. I drive about 5k/mo. Oil consumption is 1qt every 4k. No leaking or smoking. I have tried LM Ceratec, MOS2 and Hydraulic Lifter Additive and they work on making her quiet for approximately 2k or so, but then the chatter is back, full force.

Video here:


Fast forward to the 2-minute mark to hear the marbles.

Any ideas are appreciated; this has mystified every mechanic.
 
What oil brand and grade? What filter?

Once something wears out, playing with oils and additives won't be a solution. It needs a tear down and rebuild. The only thing you'll get from oil is that some viscosity can maybe mask some noise.
 
Strange that it takes two minutes to start and then stop when up to temp.
wonder if its oil pressure related to the vvt system ?
 
A Toyota Master Diagnostic Technician explains the Toyota VVTI System in details, explains the problems they have and how to prevent them. In this video we'll focus on the VVT-i System for Toyota and Lexus. First before we can understand any problems we'll dive into how the system actually works and what's involved. Then I'll share with you the different problems on different engines that I've seen from experience. Those engines are the 2ZR-FE, 1AR-FE, 2AR-FE and 2GR-FE. We'll also dive into some of the common problems with this system including the notorious rattle on cold start that many Toyota owners complain about.

 
Greasymechtech said:
What oil brand and grade? What filter?

Once something wears out, playing with oils and additives won't be a solution. It needs a tear down and rebuild. The only thing you'll get from oil is that some viscosity can maybe mask some noise.
Click to expand...
It runs fine otherwise, so a rebuild would be an unecessary nuclear option. If this is just the natural sound of a high mileage Toyota V8 then I'll just roll with it.
 
Ursatdx said:
A Toyota Master Diagnostic Technician explains the Toyota VVTI System in details, explains the problems they have and how to prevent them. In this video we'll focus on the VVT-i System for Toyota and Lexus. First before we can understand any problems we'll dive into how the system actually works and what's involved. Then I'll share with you the different problems on different engines that I've seen from experience. Those engines are the 2ZR-FE, 1AR-FE, 2AR-FE and 2GR-FE. We'll also dive into some of the common problems with this system including the notorious rattle on cold start that many Toyota owners complain about.

Click to expand...


If you dont wanna watch the video, you need to replace the VVTI gear. The sound is from the VVTI gear system rocking back and forth before fully pressurized with oil. Eventually it will break a vein from the rocking which will seize your cam gear/camshaft and destroy the engine. As far as internal engine work goes this isnt too bad, certainly not a "full teardown".

Starting at 7:25 he describes everything you need to know
 
KJH said:
If you dont wanna watch the video, you need to replace the VVTI gear. The sound is from the VVTI gear system rocking back and forth before fully pressurized with oil. Eventually it will break a vein from the rocking which will seize your cam gear/camshaft and destroy the engine. As far as internal engine work goes this isnt too bad, certainly not a "full teardown".

Starting at 7:25 he describes everything you need to know
Click to expand...
Is this a long slow death, and the will noise become increasingly worse when it's close to cratering the engine? Or am I on borrowed time as I write this?
 
Brandon Gatz said:
Is this a long slow death, and the will noise become increasingly worse when it's close to cratering the engine? Or am I on borrowed time as I write this?
Click to expand...

I have no direct experience with this problem or engine, but just thinking logically I would say its a random ticking time bomb situation.

From the way the problem is described the severity of the rattling should stay pretty constant, so i dont think thats a good indicator. The biggest factor is probably how long it has been since this rattling has started, as every time the engine is started and goes through this warmup rattling, the internals of the VVTI gear are being heavily stressed. As soon as one of the veins inside the VVTI gear becomes stressed enough, it will break while the engine is running, which will almost certainly seize the camshaft at the same instant, which will almost certainly destroy the engine.

Basically, you can fix this now, the only thing that comes off for this job is the valve cover and maybe the timing chain cover. If you wait and it fails, you will almost certainly need a full rebuild or new engine, whichever is cheaper.
 
Last edited:
Ursatdx said:
A Toyota Master Diagnostic Technician explains the Toyota VVTI System in details, explains the problems they have and how to prevent them. In this video we'll focus on the VVT-i System for Toyota and Lexus. First before we can understand any problems we'll dive into how the system actually works and what's involved. Then I'll share with you the different problems on different engines that I've seen from experience. Those engines are the 2ZR-FE, 1AR-FE, 2AR-FE and 2GR-FE. We'll also dive into some of the common problems with this system including the notorious rattle on cold start that many Toyota owners complain about.

Click to expand...

I wish I never watched that video. My 2GR-FE needs to last three more years before I put it in a container for Africa, just like I did with my old Highlander; lots of good info though.
 
GSCJR said:
I wish I never watched that video. My 2GR-FE needs to last three more years before I put it in a container for Africa, just like I did with my old Highlander; lots of good info though.
Click to expand...

I wouldnt worry about it, seems like a problem that mainly plauges long OCI
 
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