Everything else pays that too. Pull up a car from any manufacturer and all those figures will be added. That's my point, the price we see is before tags, title, fees, and taxes. A Chevrolet with a $37k price tag will have nearly identical costs across the board because of taxes and title fees.
Mainstream brand EVs surpass Tesla in customer appeal
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but you interjected yourself into this
My response was from Paqza's comment.
When you go to the tesla homepage scampage it says starting at 31,500 
but I cant "GET" a model Y for under 40k. Works out to 42k+ or in your lingo since a few pennies is over $2000
its a mere penny from $50k before Government handout.
PS dont take this too seriously. I see your point(s) too.
My response was from Paqza's comment.
When you go to the tesla
but I cant "GET" a model Y for under 40k. Works out to 42k+ or in your lingo since a few pennies is over $2000
its a mere penny from $50k before Government handout.
PS dont take this too seriously. I see your point(s) too.
Curious; are you in the market for a Model Y?but you interjected yourself into this
My response was from Paqza's comment.
When you go to the teslahomepagescampage it says starting at 31,500
but I cant "GET" a model Y for under 40k. Works out to 42k+ or in your lingo since a few pennies is over $2000
its a mere penny from $50k before Government handout.
PS dont take this too seriously. I see your point(s) too.
In some ways, for sure. It's also notably more expensive and can't access Superchargers.
I forgot to include destination on the Y; fair enough.
That is the one weird thing Tesla does with listing prices. Destination is already on a window sticker. It should just be included in the price, though the difference is you can't really buy cars of GM's website, so that's a separate issue. Chevrolet doesn't include destination in its prices on the website either.
Maybe I came on a little strong, their pricing shenanigans irritates me.
They literally show starting at $31490
but its basically 50k-tax credit(s)
If I cant buy it for 31490+tax that's borderline sketchy IMO.
The fuel savings thing is beyond stupid. It should not be included in the pricing. The credit I can understand since it is applied at the time of purchase, but I don't think it should show it by default either. While most do qualify for the credit, there are some that have a combined income beyond $300k that won't.
A funny(or sad) thing on the fuel costs is that it goes up by model, assuming someone buying a Model Y or X already drives an SUV that is less efficient. It by default assumes a $6000 fuel savings unlike the Model 3 which shows $5000. None of it is routed in fact. I don't know who would want this calculation in there to begin with. I want to budget the cost of the vehicle. I don't care what the cost to power it is when actually buying the vehicle. That's paid separately. I've brought this up on Tesla Reddits and you'd think I skinned their cat in front of them based on the reactions I see.
Not just tax credits, which, on its own, is maybe okay. The goofy and arbitrary "gas savings" is what gets me. No, that's not a reasonable way to portray things, and if we're going down that path, they should also include, "Oh yeah, your insurance is also going to go up by $x,000 per year".
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Ergonomics is far more than that.
The bottom line here is that Tesla is a software company. The problem for Tesla is that vehicles have 4 wheels, and 2 or 3 volume bodies. The trend is over. It was interesting for some time, but people are over it. Some people want different EV, better built etc. some people who drove Tesla now want hybrid, some want ICE. The problem for Tesla is that they can only offer EVs.
next thing is built and material quality. Cybertruck is a prime example of why "big boys" are "big boys." Tesla does not have the necessary focus, as , again, it is a software company. It is not a company that prides itself on reliability or driving dynamics or anything that has to do with driving. Tesla's goal is to take away steering wheel from your hands. To make your driving experience down to 24oz coke and oversized iPad where you can, idk, watch a football game or play games. Other companies who put emphasis that there is something enjoyable in taking a wheel into your hands and just driving actually know how to deliver that. Human beings like to do stuff. They like to be in control of stuff. They like the mental satisfaction of achieving something. Tesla does not offer that and actually wants to completely eliminate that. WHile that was a trend it worked, but trends are, well, trends. They go away.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
It is a different philosophy. BMW is purposefully far more engaging than Tesla. People like to be in control of things. BMW advantage over Tesla is that it can offer ICE or Hybrid. So, they will built platforms for all drive trains.
I will say in this I think when Tesla overthinks it like in the case of the Cybertruck, it detracts from the vehicle. For me I think the Model 3 is nearly perfect, but I attribute that to not trying to make crazy expensive party pieces. Tesla should learn that less is more in some cases and the Model 3 is a great example of this. I guess that means Model Y is that by default, but I just absolutely despise crossovers.
I always question why anyone would want FSD because the car is actually great to drive. I don't think "the trend is over" accurate at all. It might not be for you, but that's far from what any Tesla driver would say. I have absolutely no interest in hybrids and I've never hid that. At the end of the it's all opinion and it's obvious we'll disagree on this. All either of us has posted is opinions and it's just that. I see the Model 3 as the pure essence of an EV. No added noises or unnecessary controls and everything is where you need it. I may see the Highland as a hint of regression in the controls case, but I haven't driven it to say for sure.
Cost is the biggest detractor on the i4 M50. I've never seen one in person and I'm assuming that's why.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Model3 is far from being perfect. It is prime example of making things complicated to cut cost. It has a single screen, and everything screams attempt to reinvent the wheel. Everything is a touch screen and voice control. If one wants to enjoy driving, I don't want to go through menus or cut my music to execute something that in any car takes 0.03sec to do with your hand. It is hubris on Musk and his people, thinking: what those people know in BMW, Mercedes, and Toyota, let us show them how to make vehicles. There are 12 of us here, and 4 of us proudly have a driving license.
That is a big problem for Tesla. It was a trend, and people are over it. It was interesting while it lasted, but been there done that. For example Toyota and Honda are pushing again rotary HVAC controls, manual audio controls etc. Hyndai/KIA said they will keep physical controls. EU just passed law where it will require vehicles to have physical controls for basic functions bcs. safety.
All companies throughout history did some crazy dumb stuff. But they dropped that crazy stuff bcs. feedback. Cybertruck is an example, but that is not the case in Tesla.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
BMW has the luxury of experimenting, as ICE is what drives its business.
Hard disagree to be honest. I wouldn't call it perfect, but it's simple to use. There's more controls on the wheel than many think apparently, because I rarely use the screen. The main thing I interact with is forward, back, and volume. That's on the wheel. There's very little complication in a Model 3. I'm guessing you haven't used a Model 3 much, because you'd know that's the case.
Toyota doesn't know a thing when it comes to the modern approach and is scrambling on 10 year old technology. It's laughable that they're considered some pinnacle of automotive excellence. I've driven many Toyotas over the years and while they're living on past reputation, it's false equivalence these days. I recently drove a 2023 Camry for a week and I can't seem to figure out why anyone would buy one. It was passable as a vehicle, but offers nothing special. Does it work? Sure, but it feels dated as every Toyota has for the last 20 years. Not to mention their efficiency sucks. Everyone touts their hybrids, but outside of the Prius being smaller than everyone else's hybrids, everyone else is more efficient. Look at the Tundra Hybrid, it's a joke.
Cybertruck is a rolling box of crap. Tesla makes a lot of mistakes, but Model 3 wasn't one of them. When they tried to hit a price point they stopped screwing around. They can't be helped outside of that. Remember that the Model 3 can be had for $35k. It's not some fancy luxury car.
I still prefer German vehicles, but I don't want a German EV. They're all mind numbingly expensive even over their ICE counterparts.
That's a pretty good excuse at failing at EVs.
Interesting...everything I have read and experienced is that a similar performing model Y is MORE expensive without discounts.
YES!!! I forgot about that! That is why the other day I commented about just taking into account gasoline cost without other costs when promoting EVs. (such as insurance)
That was the trigger why I post about that (also in response to a post though) I was on the Tesla website, no kidding, in the last week.
That stupid pricing got me, thought to myself when did Tesla's get so cheap, who would by a GM Bolt or even a Trailblazer gas ...
It really took more than a few moments for me to realize because I clicked further like I was ordering the car ... and then I saw it and was like WHAT THE HECK? *LOL* I really had to go back and figure out what happened to the price. Ignorant ? Maybe but I wasnt expecting it.
Really, let's be honest. It's almost like the online version or selling cars in a dealership the way they put the price you dont get there!
*LOL*
I mean, this is supposed to be the premium EV brand we so highly talk about, using car salesmen like selling tactics on the internet without the salesmen. I COULDNT BELIEVE IT !! (sorry for all the drama in my post)
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
I did drive Model3. Having some functions on steering wheel is really not achievement.Hard disagree to be honest. I wouldn't call it perfect, but it's simple to use. There's more controls on the wheel than many think apparently, because I rarely use the screen. The main thing I interact with is forward, back, and volume. That's on the wheel. There's very little complication in a Model 3. I'm guessing you haven't used a Model 3 much, because you'd know that's the case.
Toyota doesn't know a thing when it comes to the modern approach and is scrambling on 10 year old technology. It's laughable that they're considered some pinnacle of automotive excellence. I've driven many Toyotas over the years and while they're living on past reputation, it's false equivalence these days. I recently drove a 2023 Camry for a week and I can't seem to figure out why anyone would buy one. It was passable as a vehicle, but offers nothing special. Does it work? Sure, but it feels dated as every Toyota has for the last 20 years. Not to mention their efficiency sucks. Everyone touts their hybrids, but outside of the Prius being smaller than everyone else's hybrids, everyone else is more efficient. Look at the Tundra Hybrid, it's a joke.
Cybertruck is a rolling box of crap. Tesla makes a lot of mistakes, but Model 3 wasn't one of them. When they tried to hit a price point they stopped screwing around. They can't be helped outside of that. Remember that the Model 3 can be had for $35k. It's not some fancy luxury car.
I still prefer German vehicles, but I don't want a German EV. They're all mind numbingly expensive even over their ICE counterparts.
That's a pretty good excuse at failing at EVs.
Model3 was luxury car but apparently know it is not? Because it was sold in the beginning as luxury vehicle, at least some here tried to tell us that, although we tried to explain that Yugo style plastic with high price doesn’t mean luxury. Now when price actually reflects quality (maybe) it is regular vehicle. Give me a break.
BMW absolutely is not failing in EVs. BMW is in business of selling cars, and it does pretty well. I have seen a lot of i4’s. But than BMW has cars like M3 or 340 and well, people like that.
As for Toyota, I am not arguing Toyota is some kind of pinnacle of automotive industry. But for Tesla, it actually might be.
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