Magnets on an oil filter

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
This is because Carbon particles are diamagnetic, it only act as magnetized inside a magnetic field. Appart from the magnetic field they are not magnetized anymore. Now you see it wasn't ferrous materia, just carbon that slid down the can.

Ive only heard of "ferromagnetic carbon" in a few tech pieces under very limited conditions.

Do you have any new material to study on this?

Diamagnetic materials are repelled in the presence of a magnetic field, not attracted. Classic example of someone Googling something and not understanding what they read, he just saw "magnetic" in the name and didn't know what it meant. Diamagnetisim would be opposite what you would want in this situation.

Only if it was paramagnetic would it be attracted.

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I used a magnet made specifically for oil filters, which fit on the top of the filter. After about 2 years it started losing strength, so much so that I could tell by how much easier it was to remove from the filter and the chassis of my van where I stuck it when I changed the filter. Maybe they used a lesser quality magnet, I tossed it.


Must be a knockoff, my genuine filter mag has been used for years right below my exhaust it gets pretty warm on these engines and still is very hard to remove when I want to take it off.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I used a magnet made specifically for oil filters, which fit on the top of the filter. After about 2 years it started losing strength, so much so that I could tell by how much easier it was to remove from the filter and the chassis of my van where I stuck it when I changed the filter. Maybe they used a lesser quality magnet, I tossed it.


Must be a knockoff, my genuine filter mag has been used for years right below my exhaust it gets pretty warm on these engines and still is very hard to remove when I want to take it off.


It could have been a knock off. I pitched it so there's no way of me telling now.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Dang, that's a lot of aluminum particles in the oil filter on the FZ-09 oil change. I did the 1st oil change on my new XSR900 at 600 miles and there was hardly any particles in the oil filter ... and I broke it in relatively hard.


Aluminum? What makes you think they are aluminum?


It is ... UncleDave can chime in if he wants to clarify. If he would have used a magnet to see, he would find they were non-ferrous metal particles, which can only be aluminum in this kind of engine.

On my XSR900 (same engine as the FZ-09), I had a few aluminum particles in the oil filter at the 600 mile oil change, but nothing to the level shown in UD's photos in the FZ-09 website link.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
It is ... UncleDave can chime in if he wants to clarify. If he would have used a magnet to see, he would find they were non-ferrous metal particles, which can only be aluminum in this kind of engine.

On my XSR900 (same engine as the FZ-09), I had a few aluminum particles in the oil filter at the 600 mile oil change, but nothing to the level shown in UD's photos in the FZ-09 website link.


Ahha, in the filter media. Sorry, I thought you meant the particles trapped by the magnet. My fault.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
It is ... UncleDave can chime in if he wants to clarify. If he would have used a magnet to see, he would find they were non-ferrous metal particles, which can only be aluminum in this kind of engine.

On my XSR900 (same engine as the FZ-09), I had a few aluminum particles in the oil filter at the 600 mile oil change, but nothing to the level shown in UD's photos in the FZ-09 website link.


Ahha, in the filter media. Sorry, I thought you meant the particles trapped by the magnet. My fault.


Yup ... in the other photos in the FZ-09 link. Sorry, I knew UD would know what I was referring too and didn't clarify for others.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: UncleDave


Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.



UD


No direct contact of particles with magnet surface in that situation.

Maybe that makes a difference relative to a magnetic drain plug?


Thats one thought , that and the particles don't travel across the face of the poles unidirectionally enough times to actually retain any real magnetism, or what they may pick up leaves nearly instantly with the heat.

UD


Second 2 considerations seem to apply to the drain plug as well.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Dang, that's a lot of aluminum particles in the oil filter on the FZ-09 oil change. I did the 1st oil change on my new XSR900 at 600 miles and there was hardly any particles in the oil filter ... and I broke it in relatively hard.


Aluminum? What makes you think they are aluminum?


It is ... UncleDave can chime in if he wants to clarify. If he would have used a magnet to see, he would find they were non-ferrous metal particles, which can only be aluminum in this kind of engine.

On my XSR900 (same engine as the FZ-09), I had a few aluminum particles in the oil filter at the 600 mile oil change, but nothing to the level shown in UD's photos in the FZ-09 website link.




I only expect a mag to catch iron, other metals containing various %'s of magnetic alloys can also often show up in fitermags, or on magnet tips. Hard for me to see much in that pict.
I typically don't see much in much in a japanese bike except maybe iron from the liners. All my dirt bikes and quads have metallic drain plugs. I get a bit if fuzz on each change.

I miss my street bikes but thats a mother story.

UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: Ducked


Second 2 considerations seem to apply to the drain plug as well.


Yes they could potentially magnetize better than with a can in between them - then lose a clump.

I just don't really see it happening once a rare earth magnet get hold of a particle it pretty much all she wrote - giant strings of debris trailing into the oil - you have bigger problems

old Alnico stuff sure - Neo, or samarium cobalt etc... I really doubt it.

UD

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Dang, that's a lot of aluminum particles in the oil filter on the FZ-09 oil change. I did the 1st oil change on my new XSR900 at 600 miles and there was hardly any particles in the oil filter ... and I broke it in relatively hard.


Aluminum? What makes you think they are aluminum?


It is ... UncleDave can chime in if he wants to clarify. If he would have used a magnet to see, he would find they were non-ferrous metal particles, which can only be aluminum in this kind of engine.

On my XSR900 (same engine as the FZ-09), I had a few aluminum particles in the oil filter at the 600 mile oil change, but nothing to the level shown in UD's photos in the FZ-09 website link.


I only expect a mag to catch iron, other metals containing various %'s of magnetic alloys can also often show up in fitermags, or on magnet tips. Hard for me to see much in that pict.
I typically don't see much in much in a japanese bike except maybe iron from the liners. All my dirt bikes and quads have metallic drain plugs. I get a bit if fuzz on each change.

I miss my street bikes but thats a mother story.

UD


I'm talking about all the glitter you talked about and was in the other photos on the FZ-09 link you posted - one below looks like lots of aluminum or other particles were inside the filter. I didn't see anything even close to the level of aluminum particles shown in your photos there - and my first oil change was at 600 miles. I found maybe 12~15 total aluminum particles I cold see with my eyes that were caught deep in the pleats of the factory oil filter.

 

[UncleDave]

I didnt talk about the glitter- whoever wrote that article did.

I would agree that would be aluminum in the filter and not caught on the mag.

I was pointing to whatever the magnet was holding that was now running down the side of the can when its removed as evidence whatever it held did not stay magnetic.

The guy that wrote that particular article wasnt me - however the guy in the honda video above IS me. My old toy hauler a honda 2K and my YZ450

sorry for any confusion.

UD

 

[AMC]

I stick 3 of these in a triangle pattern to the bottoms of all my oil filters.

Seems to work quite well. The magnets are very strong for their size, the bright silver color makes them stand out so I don't forget to take them off and if they get broken or thrown out on accident, replacements are cheap and convenient.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/MASTER-MAGNET...090HD/202526371

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
I didnt talk about the glitter- whoever wrote that article did.

I would agree that would be aluminum in the filter and not caught on the mag.

I was pointing to whatever the magnet was holding that was now running down the side of the can when its removed as evidence whatever it held did not stay magnetic.

The guy that wrote that particular article wasnt me - however the guy in the honda video above IS me. My old toy hauler a honda 2K and my YZ450

sorry for any confusion.

UD


Ok, thanks ... I thought it was your FZ-09 oil change you were talking about and linking to. Anyway, that FZ-09 might be eating itself up if there was that much particles in the oil at 180 miles. Mine was not even close to that.

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
I didnt talk about the glitter- whoever wrote that article did.

I would agree that would be aluminum in the filter and not caught on the mag.

I was pointing to whatever the magnet was holding that was now running down the side of the can when its removed as evidence whatever it held did not stay magnetic.

The guy that wrote that particular article wasnt me - however the guy in the honda video above IS me. My old toy hauler a honda 2K and my YZ450

sorry for any confusion.

UD


Ok, thanks ... I thought it was your FZ-09 oil change you were talking about and linking to. Anyway, that FZ-09 might be eating itself up if there was that much particles in the oil at 180 miles. Mine was not even close to that.


No prob - I wish.

It was a particularly nasty example it looked to me like he was sucking sand into the engine.

Enjoy the bike!

UD

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Thanks UD!

 

[baguio12]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Why hasn't one of the major filter manufacturers added magnets to an oil filter and offered it at a premium price as an enhanced filter? Strong magnets are super cheap in bulk.

Some of the canister transmission filters use magnets at the spin on base such as the Allison transmission spin ons

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: baguio12
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Why hasn't one of the major filter manufacturers added magnets to an oil filter and offered it at a premium price as an enhanced filter? Strong magnets are super cheap in bulk.

Some of the canister transmission filters use magnets at the spin on base such as the Allison transmission spin ons



http://www.magnafilter.com.au/magna-filter.html

This appears to be an in-line post-filter that fits between the std spin-on base and its mounting, perhaps incorporating some physical filtration along with a magnet to address the "rogue magnetic particles" concern. It is apparently consumable, lasting 50k miles.

Website is rather short on detail. In particular, there's no cross-section of the add-on cannister shown, so it isn't clear what is in it.

It'd be nice if was something like this, with special areas outside the main flow to sequester the particles, but that setup probably wouldn't be cheap.

http://media.noria.com/sites/archive_images/Backup_200501_prodrev-fig1.jpg




These people http://www.magna-guard.com/MagnaGuard.html do a magnet that fits inside the filter, in the central outflow channel. Basically a retro-fit version of the Taiwanese built-in magnet I posted earlier. Apparently not much to it, just pop a magnet in. Rather disappointingly from a flux density point of view, it’s a ceramic (“ceramic-8”) magnet (though in this invasive location, temperature stability will be an issue with at least some grades of neodymium magnets.)

http://www.kaputi.com/data/kaputi/product/419bcfa0cd.jpg

The filter outlet channel seems the wrong place for a magnet, since if the wear particles are washed off by the relatively high oil flow there, there is no downstream physical filter to protect the bearings from the clumps of possibly magnetized wear particles.

This design http://www.magneticfiltration.com/halex_coil/overview differs in that it apparently has a large powerful neodymium magnet which is located outside the dome-end of the spin-on filter by a steel(?) coil.

It seems possible that the magnetised coil transfers trapped particles down to the magnet, perhaps improving trapping efficiency and capacity (though I havn’t seen that claimed). [Can't get this one to display directly]

http://www.magneticfiltration.com/images/halex_coil_diagram

Since I'm trying to spot (or inventing?) potential downsides, I'd be concerned that a very powerful magnet in that location might interfere with the operation of the filters internal bypass valve, which is often at that end of the filter

http://www.synlube.com/images/OFc3r.jpg

A bandolier jacket of neodymium bar magnets around the circumference of the filter seems like a better design, and there are several commercially available

For example, these people http://www.shopfiltermag.com/do a slap-on semi-cylinder filter jacket, apparently made up of bar magnets.

 

[Ducked]

Forgot to say that the above "better filter" image (second picture) is from this article:-

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/710/magnetic-filter-flow

It's a bit of a thinly veiled advert, but it outlines the development of a high performance system, and is another acknowledgement/confirmation of "wash off" as a problem, though magnetising of wear particles isn't mentioned.

 

[philipp10]

Originally Posted By: 07Piloteer
Anyone agree/disagree with putting a magnet or two on the oil filter to try to catch metallic particulate as it passes thru the filter? I cannot see the harm, so I put two very strong magnets I removed from am old PC hard drive on my filter. I'd love to see a cut of one.

(I've tried the search function on this forum, but it's not so helpful).


Sounds like a waste of time....let the filter do it's job...lol

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

If your magnet goes above 85C it can loose its strenght instantly, because it gets weak, above that. But I've measured the filter can at 91C and the hd mag was still there, even thogh attached at the bottom of the can. They have a steel chassis on them that help on the cooling.