M1 vs M1 EP

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aquariuscsm

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What exactly makes them different from each other? Add packs,base oils,etc? Is one "thicker",a better cleaning oil? I remember using the 15W50 EP in my 300ZX probably 15 years ago and that's my only experience with it.
 
EP and AP have lots of PAO in them whereas the other oils have either a mix of PAO and Group III or just Group III under the M1 banner of products depending on what you use.

But... It doesn't mean that the Group III are lesser oils and certainly not under the M1 banner.

It's just they are designed to go longer if that is what your goal is. Using AP which is their oil with the most PAO but changing it out at 5K miles isn't going to give you more protection than their standard M1 synthetic that is all Group III. That's a big misconception pushed by some folks here that seem to be stuck in the 1970's when an oil relied heavily on it's base stock composition for performance.

Today a Group III with the right additives can outperform a Group 4 PAO oil with a lesser additive package.
 
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Both are outstanding oils. Perhaps the EP has a pinch more PAO, but both have some esters as all M1 oils have.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
EP and AP have lots of PAO in them whereas the other oils have either a mix of PAO and Group III or just Group III under the M1 banner of products depending on what you use.

But... It doesn't mean that the Group III are lesser oils and certainly not under the M1 banner.

It's just they are designed to go longer if that is what your goal is. Using AP which is their oil with the most PAO but changing it out at 5K miles isn't going to give you more protection than their standard M1 synthetic that is all Group III. That's a big misconception pushed by some folks here that seem to be stuck in the 1970's when an oil relied heavily on it's base stock composition for performance.

Today a Group III with the right additives can outperform a Group 4 PAO oil with a lesser additive package.




I believe this to be the case. M1 has several different product lines like AFE and Super Synthetic to name a couple. They differ in that their bases are different blends of group III , 4, and perhaps some 5 in certain ones. There was some suggestion here that GTL is also present in some. The AFE was mentioned in that respect.
 
Looking at the 5W30 SDS sheets, EP is shown to be 20-30% PAO, AP is 5-10%, ESP is 1-5%, PAO is not listed for ESP Formula, vanilla 5W30 is 20-30%, and HM is 5-10% PAO.
I hope none of these results were from old sheets, forgot to check the dates and I'm not opening them all again!
 
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Looking at the 5W30 SDS sheets, EP is shown to be 20-30% PAO, AP is 5-10%, ESP is 1-5%, PAO is not listed for ESP Formula, vanilla 5W30 is 20-30%, and HM is 5-10% PAO.
I hope none of these results were from old sheets, forgot to check the dates and I'm not opening them all again!

These are just so if there is a spill, fire or someone ingests it the first responders / crews know what they are working with. Exact amounts will never be listed for competitive reasons.
The only way to tell for sure is to reverse engineer it in a lab but that's a $1300 test I'm told.

It's cheaper to do trial and error and $10 Wix UOA's to establish a trend and best guess this way if the oil meets your performance level. I would have no problem betting the house on even the bottom basic M1 synthetic as XOM doesn't do anything 1/2 arsed and their billions in sales shows it.
 
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Not much if you don't stretch an OCI on the EP. I use regular M1 at 8k intervals comfortably and waiting to find out if I can do more. AFE 0W-30
 
Here are me most recent virgin sample of each. Fairly similer in most respects but a few minor things. TBN is a little higher in the EP as well as the Magnesium

Code
M1 5W30 M1 EP 5W30

Sample Date 10/10/2018 1/15/2019

Sample # 39792 40349

Lab #

Analyst

Unique ID 39792 40349

Wear Status 0 0

Cont Status 0 0

Chem Status 0 0

Unit Usage

Oil Usage

Oil Added

Aluminum 1.52 1

Antimony 0.45 1.97

Barium 0 0

Boron 84.04 93.01

Cadmium 0 0.05

Calcium 1,073.00 1,067.00

Chromium 0 0.03

Copper 0.04 0.02

Iron 0.8 0.8

Lead 0.08 0

Magnesium 499.24 570.33

Molybdenum 78.76 85.8

Nickel 0.09 0

Phosphorus 653.37 678.73

Potassium 0.14 0.9

Silicon 4.6 3.92

Silver 0.01 0.04

Sodium 7.99 6.87

Tin 0.06 2.4

Vanadium 1.66 2.15

Zinc 1,025.00 913.81

Manganese 0.02 0.07

Titanium 0.03 0.28

Add Depletion 108 99

Ferrous Idx

AntiOx Deplete

Antiwear Comp

Free Water

Glycol Vol 0 0

IR Fuel

IR Oxidation 7.77 7.42

IR Soot

IR Nitration 4.72 1.26

IR Water

IR Hcarbs

IR Glycol

IR Anti-Wear

IR Sulfation 16.62 14.17

Visc 40C 66 61.3

Visc 100C 11.7 10.9

Visc Idx 172 169

Total Acid

Total Base 6.87 8.26

Foam Tend 1

Specific Gravity

Solids Vol

WDA Severity

Ferro Large

Ferro Small

Fuel Vol

Soot LEM/TGA 0 0

Soot Vol

PPM Water 191 0
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
EP and AP have lots of PAO in them whereas the other oils have either a mix of PAO and Group III or just Group III under the M1 banner of products depending on what you use.

But... It doesn't mean that the Group III are lesser oils and certainly not under the M1 banner.

It's just they are designed to go longer if that is what your goal is. Using AP which is their oil with the most PAO but changing it out at 5K miles isn't going to give you more protection than their standard M1 synthetic that is all Group III. That's a big misconception pushed by some folks here that seem to be stuck in the 1970's when an oil relied heavily on it's base stock composition for performance.

Today a Group III with the right additives can outperform a Group 4 PAO oil with a lesser additive package.


Well said. To make an oil last longer you have to add more to it in terms of additives and base oil blends etc. You generally get what you pay for.
 
Originally Posted by Purpfox
Here are me most recent virgin sample of each. Fairly similer in most respects but a few minor things. TBN is a little higher in the EP as well as the Magnesium

Those zinc levels look really high to me!
From what little I know, those are above SN/GF5 levels...TBN for the plain 5W30 looks quite low, too.
Looks like the EP is substantially thinner at 100C, never noticed that before.
EP 5W30 is one oil I sort of gave up on, ran it once and noticed an odd little rattle after startup that I suspect was probably due to a wonky oil filter...it was the same type of filter I have run for quite a while (black Tokyo Roki Subie branded for the WRX), I think there was just something wrong with that particular filter. Never heard the noise before or since that OCI, even though I strongly suspect the oil had nothing to do with it I figured that there are a dozen other perfectly suitable oils at WM so why not buy one of those, instead?
 
Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by Purpfox
Here are me most recent virgin sample of each. Fairly similer in most respects but a few minor things. TBN is a little higher in the EP as well as the Magnesium

Those zinc levels look really high to me!
From what little I know, those are above SN/GF5 levels...


Agreed those Zn numbers are out of line with many other analysis... out there including PQIA and other UOA. And mass % out of line with the additive compound to boot.

Odd.

Group III hydrocracked base is such a good performer that EXxonMobil puts little of it and majority PAO in their race formula.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by StevieC
EP and AP have lots of PAO in them whereas the other oils have either a mix of PAO and Group III or just Group III under the M1 banner of products depending on what you use.

But... It doesn't mean that the Group III are lesser oils and certainly not under the M1 banner.

It's just they are designed to go longer if that is what your goal is. Using AP which is their oil with the most PAO but changing it out at 5K miles isn't going to give you more protection than their standard M1 synthetic that is all Group III. That's a big misconception pushed by some folks here that seem to be stuck in the 1970's when an oil relied heavily on it's base stock composition for performance.

Today a Group III with the right additives can outperform a Group 4 PAO oil with a lesser additive package.




I believe this to be the case. M1 has several different product lines like AFE and Super Synthetic to name a couple. They differ in that their bases are different blends of group III , 4, and perhaps some 5 in certain ones. There was some suggestion here that GTL is also present in some. The AFE was mentioned in that respect.


Actually some of SteviecC post was not all together right.
 
Originally Posted by tig1
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by StevieC
EP and AP have lots of PAO in them whereas the other oils have either a mix of PAO and Group III or just Group III under the M1 banner of products depending on what you use.

But... It doesn't mean that the Group III are lesser oils and certainly not under the M1 banner.

It's just they are designed to go longer if that is what your goal is. Using AP which is their oil with the most PAO but changing it out at 5K miles isn't going to give you more protection than their standard M1 synthetic that is all Group III. That's a big misconception pushed by some folks here that seem to be stuck in the 1970's when an oil relied heavily on it's base stock composition for performance.

Today a Group III with the right additives can outperform a Group 4 PAO oil with a lesser additive package.




I believe this to be the case. M1 has several different product lines like AFE and Super Synthetic to name a couple. They differ in that their bases are different blends of group III , 4, and perhaps some 5 in certain ones. There was some suggestion here that GTL is also present in some. The AFE was mentioned in that respect.


Actually some of SteviecC post was not all together right.



Specifically what part of it wasn't right?
 
Originally Posted by Purpfox
Here are me most recent virgin sample of each. Fairly similer in most respects but a few minor things. TBN is a little higher in the EP as well as the Magnesium

Code
M1 5W30 M1 EP 5W30

Sample Date 10/10/2018 1/15/2019

Sample # 39792 40349

Lab #

Analyst

Unique ID 39792 40349

Wear Status 0 0

Cont Status 0 0

Chem Status 0 0

Unit Usage

Oil Usage

Oil Added

Aluminum 1.52 1

Antimony 0.45 1.97

Barium 0 0

Boron 84.04 93.01

Cadmium 0 0.05

Calcium 1,073.00 1,067.00

Chromium 0 0.03

Copper 0.04 0.02

Iron 0.8 0.8

Lead 0.08 0

Magnesium 499.24 570.33

Molybdenum 78.76 85.8

Nickel 0.09 0

Phosphorus 653.37 678.73

Potassium 0.14 0.9

Silicon 4.6 3.92

Silver 0.01 0.04

Sodium 7.99 6.87

Tin 0.06 2.4

Vanadium 1.66 2.15

Zinc 1,025.00 913.81

Manganese 0.02 0.07

Titanium 0.03 0.28

Add Depletion 108 99

Ferrous Idx

AntiOx Deplete

Antiwear Comp

Free Water

Glycol Vol 0 0

IR Fuel

IR Oxidation 7.77 7.42

IR Soot

IR Nitration 4.72 1.26

IR Water

IR Hcarbs

IR Glycol

IR Anti-Wear

IR Sulfation 16.62 14.17

Visc 40C 66 61.3

Visc 100C 11.7 10.9

Visc Idx 172 169

Total Acid

Total Base 6.87 8.26

Foam Tend 1

Specific Gravity

Solids Vol

WDA Severity

Ferro Large

Ferro Small

Fuel Vol

Soot LEM/TGA 0 0

Soot Vol

PPM Water 191 0

Thanks! This is very useful. EP certainly has a little stronger additive package and higher TBN (thanks to more magnesium).

Do you have the data for 0W-20?
 
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