M1 Volatility - multiple vis products

[JAG]

The testing stopped after 16 hours of heating time. I tilted the cups, sucked out excess oil, then used a little piece of paper towel in each cup to suck up a little more oil. The piece in the M1 0W-40 cup fell over, landing on some big agglomerations (“blobs”) and not letting go of them. Just imagine they are there when you see the picture of it. To see them all, requires moving one’s eyes or taking a video to get the lighting right, so my ranking of the results is based on better images than what I share here.

The M1 ESP 0W-30 and 5W-30 fans will be happy that they tied for the win in the test for resistance to forming deposits precursors (agglomerations/blobs) at 16 hours. These two oils had quite a few small blobs that don’t show up in the pictures, so they did worse than the pictures indicate. The gap between the best and worst is not large. QS 5W-40 got 3rd place and M1 FS 0W-40 got last place.

 

[JAG]

I don’t know how relevant and misleading the amount of varnish is on the sides of the cups. Oils can climb metal walls and an oil that does so more than others will form more varnish in tests like this, if all else is equal about the oils. I will report on the varnish anyway. M1 FS 0W-40 clearly has the most varnish. The other three are close, with M1 ESP 0W-30 and QS 5W-40 extremely similar, while ESP 5W-30 has the least.

If I had to choose either M1 ESP 0W-30 or ESP 5W-30, from what I know now, I would choose the 0W-30 because it had lower volatility and similar amount of deposit precursors. I would not factor in the varnish on the sides of the cups results because they were so close and I don’t know if the result is relevant to what happens in an engine or how much it is biased by wall climbing tendency. The approvals these two oils meet are very similar, as is their metallic additive concentrations, and they both seem to have good shear stability. I think the Russian Oil Club’s shear stability test of M1 ESP 5W-30 was that it actually increased in viscosity.

 

[buster]

Thanks for sharing @JAG .

 

[OilUzer]

I am sure you have more tests to run but given your test results up to this point, plus whatever else you may take into consideration if any (e.g. Approvals, base oil, Noack #, price, etc.), what would be the ranking list for your car(s).

iirc, QS Euro 5W-40 would be your #1. No? And the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th?

 

[JAG]

What I have chosen for my vehicle over the years, including now, is not useful information to others, but I will state the oils that I currently think especially highly of.

1. For oils with HTHS < 3.5: The possibly extinct QS Ultimate Protection for its low volatility and great oxidation resistance. VRP for its cleaning capabilities. I do still like Amsoil SS. I find the ordering process to be a little stressful due to making sure I am still a Preferred Customer, waiting for days, big cost etc.
2. For oils with HTHS between 3.5 and 4.0: QS and PP Euro 5W-40 for the low volatility and great oxidation resistance, and M1 ESP 0W-30 for the decently low volatility and great oxidation resistance.

Years ago, I would have laughed about me listing those QS and Pennzoil Platinum oils. Those QS oils have proven themselves in the testing, despite their humble brand. I have tested some oils by small blenders other than Amsoil. They are not on my list above due to one or more reasons. Maybe I will come across a gem in their product lines.

Caveats:
I have tested a decent number of different oils, but it’s still a small proportion of what’s available in the U.S. I assume that QS 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum 5W-40 are roughly identical. My tests have only evaluated the performance categories of volatility, oxidation resistance, and copper corrosion. I don’t expect to ever know which oils have especially great antiwear performance, so I make the simple assumption that whichever reputable oil I use does well enough in that regard. I cannot use that category to rank oils.

 

[Glenda W.]

What I have chosen for my vehicle over the years, including now, is not useful information to others, but I will state the oils that I currently think especially highly of.

1. For oils with HTHS < 3.5: The possibly extinct QS Ultimate Protection for its low volatility and great oxidation resistance. VRP for its cleaning capabilities. I do still like Amsoil SS. I find the ordering process to be a little stressful due to making sure I am still a Preferred Customer, waiting for days, big cost etc.
2. For oils with HTHS between 3.5 and 4.0: QS and PP Euro 5W-40 for the low volatility and great oxidation resistance, and M1 ESP 0W-30 for the decently low volatility and great oxidation resistance.

Years ago, I would have laughed about me listing those QS and Pennzoil Platinum oils. Those QS oils have proven themselves in the testing, despite their humble brand. I have tested some oils by small blenders other than Amsoil. They are not on my list above due to one or more reasons. Maybe I will come across a gem in their product lines.

Caveats:
I have tested a decent number of different oils, but it’s still a small proportion of what’s available in the U.S. I assume that QS 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum 5W-40 are roughly identical. My tests have only evaluated the performance categories of volatility, oxidation resistance, and copper corrosion. I don’t expect to ever know which oils have especially great antiwear performance, so I make the simple assumption that whichever reputable oil I use does well enough in that regard. I cannot use that category to rank oils.

Appreciate your honesty. All great oils on your list.

 

[JAG]

I just checked Quaker State’s website. QS Ultimate Protection is still there. Recently at a nearby Walmart, there was none. Hopefully that is temporary. QS’s website still has no Euro 5W-40.

For those that haven’t seen my thread on QS Ultimate Protection, the 5W-20’s volatility was only slightly higher than QS Euro 5W-40. That is very impressive. https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...rotection-volatility-results-nov-2024.389905/

 

[OilUzer]

What I have chosen for my vehicle over the years, including now, is not useful information to others, but I will state the oils that I currently think especially highly of.

1. For oils with HTHS < 3.5: The possibly extinct QS Ultimate Protection for its low volatility and great oxidation resistance. VRP for its cleaning capabilities. I do still like Amsoil SS. I find the ordering process to be a little stressful due to making sure I am still a Preferred Customer, waiting for days, big cost etc.
2. For oils with HTHS between 3.5 and 4.0: QS and PP Euro 5W-40 for the low volatility and great oxidation resistance, and M1 ESP 0W-30 for the decently low volatility and great oxidation resistance.

Years ago, I would have laughed about me listing those QS and Pennzoil Platinum oils. Those QS oils have proven themselves in the testing, despite their humble brand. I have tested some oils by small blenders other than Amsoil. They are not on my list above due to one or more reasons. Maybe I will come across a gem in their product lines.

Caveats:
I have tested a decent number of different oils, but it’s still a small proportion of what’s available in the U.S. I assume that QS 5W-40 and Pennzoil Platinum 5W-40 are roughly identical. My tests have only evaluated the performance categories of volatility, oxidation resistance, and copper corrosion. I don’t expect to ever know which oils have especially great antiwear performance, so I make the simple assumption that whichever reputable oil I use does well enough in that regard. I cannot use that category to rank oils.

Thank you! You basically answered my question since anything that "I think highly of", ends up in my cars ...

Regarding VRP being under your #1 list, have you done any testing with it? I don't see any in this thread but maybe you had other tests.

 

[folzag2]

Thanks for sharing @JAG. Very interesting stuff. I appreciate your effort.

And I have to say I am really disappointed QS Euro 5W-40 is discontinued. (I'd seen the earlier thread on it.) Last year, based on posts I'd seen here I switched over to it. I bought 4 5-quart jugs, which is 2 oil changes for my M272 powered Sprinter van. I had been doing 10-12k mi oil changes, but decided I should probably shorten them up and the last one was only 8.2k. Plus I added 1qt of EC30 for the last 500 miles since I felt like I was getting varnish around where I could see in the fill hole. (The van has 110k mi.)

Back in April I did my second oil change with QS Euro plus 1.5 qt EC30. My plan was to run it for 8k and do an oil analysis to see how it was holding up. I was hoping it would show well and I'd entertain going back to 10-12k mi oil changes with the EC30 augmenting the chemistry. With it being discontinued, I don't plan to do a UOA because there's no point in evaluating an oil I can't buy any more.

I haven't figured out what I want to switch to instead. Seems like all the screaming good deals are gone now, though. Such a bummer.

 

[JAG]

Regarding VRP being under your #1 list, have you done any testing with it?

I have tested VRP quite a few times. I tried various ways to test its cleaning capabilities but the varnish I produced on purpose for it to clean was too hardened for it to do any significant cleaning. I made multiple attempts and failed but have succeeded year ago. The varnish was so hard that it would chip/flake off when scraped hard. That’s mission impossible for any oil to remove. Here are two threads with VRP volatility data. It did not win any volatility contests, but it’s not bad.

J

Thread 'Valvoline Restore and Protect 5W-20 Volatility Results - Dec 2024'

Dec 6, 2024

Please see this earlier thread for a more complete description of the test procedure: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...rotection-volatility-results-nov-2024.389905/
In this paragraph, I will only point out things that differed. Oil temperature was ~380 F. The oils' initial oil weights were 0.850 grams. The total heating duration was 7 hours. The 7 hours does not include the time it took to cool the oils prior to weighing or to do the weighing. 7 hours provided sufficient data and VRP 5W-20 lost 16.5% of its weight by then...

• JAG
• Replies: 34
• Forum: Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Vehicles

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J

Thread 'M1 and VRP 5W-30, Delo 5W-40 Volatility Results - Dec 2024'

Jan 5, 2025

The test was conducted on Dec 30, 2024. Temperature was set on the oven to what looked like ~ 420 F. A thermocouple reading on an oil with that same oven setting on Dec 27 said 431 F, when was ambient temperature was 47 F. Ambient temp. at start of this test was 60 F. Quaker State 5W-40 was included as the reference oil. All oils meet API SP, except for Delo that meets CK-4. I believe the causes of variation in trends are varying wind, varying ambient temperatures, and varying positions of the oils throughout the test. The oils were rotated right after each hour. If/when I do future...

• JAG
• Replies: 39
• Forum: Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Vehicles

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[JAG]

I felt like I was getting varnish around where I could see in the fill hole. (The van has 110k mi.)

Was the varnish entirely from prior to using QS 5W-40 or was it added to by QS?

Check for Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 on that online commerce site named after a tropical forest and river. I think it’s the same formulation as QS Euro 5W-40. I ordered multiple 6-qt cases for a decent price a couple weeks ago.

 

[Accent Abuser]

Adjusted for inflation, it's pretty close to his 9%.

In one of my cars, M1 FS 0W-40 Noack felt like 25% so I went back to M1 EP 10W-30.

I had similar results with the SP formula update with 0w-40 and 5w-50. I had to remove the intake boot when I was trying to diagnose an IMRC valve failure and there was clouds upon clouds of oil vapor coming from the vent tube that comes from the valve cover, almost like the motor was vaping it. Not as great as it used to be back when it was pao/poe based.

 

[folzag2]

Was the varnish entirely from prior to using QS 5W-40 or was it added to by QS?

Oh no. It was entirely prior. Slowly accumulated over time.

I know I can get Penn Euro 5W40 as nearly the same thing, and probably will.

 

[OilUzer]

Oh no. It was entirely prior. Slowly accumulated over time.

I know I can get Penn Euro 5W40 as nearly the same thing, and probably will.

Maybe 12K miles OCIs are too long!

What does your M272 owner's manual recommend? Also what MB approvals does it require?

 

[VersysVsWhat]

One potential conclusion I got from this testing, is that GTL probably could rightfully/accurately be referred to as Group III+, even if some people might think that is silly. Aren't these particular Quaker State and Pennzoil products relatively high in GTL content?

I'm a little disappointed in M1 Euro FS 0w-40. I'm taking it off my bike's colder part of the year list, and will be using the rest of my cache up in my car during the warm to hotter part of the year (my car's middle of the road recommended viscosity is 5w-30). For the bike, I think I'm going to swap in Valvoline's 10w-40 synthetic WCMO for the colder part of the year, since it is 80 to 90% GTL. (In the hotter part of the year I run 15w-50's.)

Thank you for doing this testing.

 

[OVERKILL]

One potential conclusion I got from this testing, is that GTL probably could rightfully/accurately be referred to as Group III+, even if some people might think that is silly. Aren't these particular Quaker State and Pennzoil products relatively high in GTL content?

I'm a little disappointed in M1 Euro FS 0w-40. I'm taking it off my bike's colder part of the year list, and will be using the rest of my cache up in my car during the warm to hotter part of the year (my car's middle of the road recommended viscosity is 5w-30). For the bike, I think I'm going to swap in Valvoline's 10w-40 synthetic WCMO for the colder part of the year, since it is 80 to 90% GTL. (In the hotter part of the year I run 15w-50's.)

Thank you for doing this testing.

Unless you are getting your oil up to 420F, I'm skeptical that these results reasonably reflect the performance of the product in your engine. The 5W-40, not surprisingly, doesn't have to use as light a base as an oil with a similar KV100, but that has to be pumpable at -40C and pass CCS at -35C. That doesn't mean that some 5W-40's aren't just blended with cheaper bases (like the Castrol one) but in this case, that seems to be what the data implies.

Noack (the closest thing to this test) doesn't seem to track with consumption in many cases. So while it's limited by many approvals (has to be below 10% for most of these Euro approvals), that doesn't mean that you might not consume more of an oil with 8% Noack than one that's 9.5%.

The initial batch of the SOPUS GTL-based oils had insanely low Noack figures, which went up considerably in later reformulations before they dropped Noack from the PDS's. Mobil no longer publishes Noack either.

Remember, both FS 0W-40 and QS Euro 5W-40 have to pass all the same tests to obtain the OE approvals.

 

[VersysVsWhat]

Unless you are getting your oil up to 420F, I'm skeptical that these results reasonably reflect the performance of the product in your engine...

Definitely not in a one to one comparison kind of way (especially in the speed/time sense), but perhaps it does reflect a general pattern over a longer period of time?

 

[VersysVsWhat]

Meaning, for one example, it is possible that M1 Euro FS 0w-40 does leave a little more residue in the engine over an OCI (as compared to these other oils).

 

[OVERKILL]

Definitely not in a one to one comparison kind of way (especially in the speed/time sense), but perhaps it does reflect a general pattern over a longer period of time?

Single anecdote, take this for what you've paid for it:

Our old 5.4L Expedition, I endeavored to run the best oil I could in it, which, at the time, appeared to be AMSOIL's Signature Series 0W-30, which had a very low Noack for the grade. I had previously run various grades of Mobil 1 in the engine, ranging from 0W-20 to 5W-40 with no meaningful consumption to speak of.

The engine DRANK the SS 0W-30, like 3 litres worth in an OCI. I ran multiple OCI's, subscribing to the old adage you oft see repeated on here about consumption picking up with a change in chemistry, and then tapering off in subsequent OCI's.

It did not taper off and I ultimately burned something like 9 litres of this oil.

So, I ended up switching it to M1 AFE 0W-30, which was, from what we could discern of it from published data, an inferior product. The truck used zero between changes. I had the same experience with M1 Euro 0W-40 in it (this was before it was called FS).

I'm not sure how low the Noack is on the HPL Euro 0W-40 I'm using in the SRT, and JAG's decision not to publish his HPL test results due to the potential controversy it might stir up to me implies that, with this testing methodology, the lubricants didn't perform as well as he expected. If I had to guess, I'd expect the Noack of the 0W-40 is around 9%, which is pretty similar to most 0W-40's in this space. But this oil liberated material and deposited it in the filter that I didn't see with previous premium oils, like Ravenol SSL 0W-40. You of course don't get insight into that aspect of the product's performance with an improvised volatility test.

I think it's important to take information, such as this, not only in aggregate, but also in context. If you feel the results of this test are applicable to your application, then by all means use it as a guide, but if you don't, then it's more useful just as an interesting data point.

 

[VersysVsWhat]

To be honest, I don't know enough about tribology to be certain of anything at this point. I'm pretty new to focusing on the specifics of oil-really just started about a year ago (and I've read enough of this site to at least understand that it is potentially a very complex and relative subject at times).