M1, M1 EP & PAO...

[rewote500]

After many hours of reading older posts on BITOG I have seen steady and sometimes conflicting debate about M1 base oils. Many suggest that M1 is now a group 3 base oil while other suggest M1 actually contains more PAO then the M1 EP line. I emailed Mobil and all they will say is that both are 100% Fully Synthetic. I'd like to hear some of you chime in on a 2 part question.

1. Which line do you feel has more PAO base stock, M1 or M1 EP?
2. Which viscosity grade do you feel has more PAO in basestock?

Some have suggested that the 0w30 or 0w-40 would have a higher quality base stock because of the larger viscosity spread compared to a 5w30 or 10w30. Thanks for your input.

 

[Mark888]

1. There have been many news stories posted in this forum about the severe shortages of M1 after the ExxonMobil PAO plant was temporarily closed due to flood damage from Hurricane Ike. You can find these stores on the Internet with a google search.

2. Mobil claims that EP has 50% more SuperSyn than regular M1.

3. Mobil claims that all M1 oils contain PAO, but they duck the 100% PAO question.

4. The Japanese MSDS for M1 requires them to disclose the amount of mineral oil base stock, including Group III hydro-cracked. Based on the amount of mineral oil and other additives in the Japanese MSDS (they don't have to disclose PAO) it appears that M1 "probably" has about 35-45% PAO/Ester base stock depending on the grade.

5. Pennzoil Platinum and Castrol Syntec are 100% Group III base stock, not counting additives that may contain small amounts of Group IV/V. Valvoline SynPower FAQ ducks the PAO question, but some say their forumula has changed recently.

Reasonable Conclusion 1: M1 still has substantial amounts of PAO/Ester Group IV/V base stock, and EP has more than regular M1, but it varies somewhat by viscosity grade. I don't know of any brand that is an API energy conserving formula that has more PAO/Ester base stock than M1, but there could be some I am not aware of (Hint: Amsoil 100% Synthetic is not an API energy conserving formula).

Reasonable Conclusion 2: There is lot incorrect stuff posted on these forums.

It does appear that the 0W oils have a little more PAO/Ester base stock, but I don't think it is by a huge margin.

 

[rewote500]

Sweet, great info Mark. I'm going to give the M1 HM a shot next week then put them both on M1 EP. I appreciate everyone's input over the last few days, thanks!

 

[Mark888]

Tuesday April 31 is the last day to register at the M1 website and download two $10 mail-in rebate coupons for oil purchased April 1 - August 31, 2009.

 

[rewote500]

Hey thanks, yeah I printed those off yesterday. Just waiting on April 1. I also registered for the Mobil 1 Rewards. They give you $5 for every case purchase or oil change so I figured I'd go ahead and chew on that too. I appreciate your time and assistance!

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: Mark888
Reasonable Conclusion 2: There is lot incorrect stuff posted on these forums.

Very true. And here's an example:

Originally Posted By: Mark888
5. Pennzoil Platinum and Castrol Syntec are 100% Group III base stock, not counting additives that may contain small amounts of Group IV/V.

The MSDS sheets I've seen for Syntec indicate that the base oil blend is a cocktail of Group III, IV, and V. In fact, it's virtually impossible to make some SAE grades out of nothing but Group III, 5w50 and 20w50 for example. 15w40 and 10w40 would probably be a stretch, but you could do it if you had an extremely shear stable VI improver.

 

[OilGuy]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Mark888
5. Pennzoil Platinum and Castrol Syntec are 100% Group III base stock, not counting additives that may contain small amounts of Group IV/V.

The MSDS sheets I've seen for Syntec indicate that the base oil blend is a cocktail of Group III, IV, and V. In fact, it's virtually impossible to make some SAE grades out of nothing but Group III, 5w50 and 20w50 for example. 15w40 and 10w40 would probably be a stretch, but you could do it if you had an extremely shear stable VI improver.


But Castrol itself admits itself that Syntec has no PAO (in trying to differentiate it from egde) - hard to beat this source. Castrol also lead the charge to NOT use PAO and still call things syn.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Katrina & Rita hit the refining end of the business hard. Ike got less attention, but that storm had a very severe impact on the lube business. PAO is very short in the whole industry, still. Lots of suppliers are reformulating on the fly, partiall substituting Grp III & boosting the AO to compensate. Of necessity, this is not being done in the usual anal-retentive, by-the-numbers style that the product development function prefers. Right now is an inopportune time to make a long-term judgement of an oil's (or supplier's) quality based on what's currently on the shelf.


http://forums.noria.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/616604995/m/7851063282?r=49710888#49710888

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Mark888
Reasonable Conclusion 2: There is lot incorrect stuff posted on these forums.

Very true. And here's an example:

Originally Posted By: Mark888
5. Pennzoil Platinum and Castrol Syntec are 100% Group III base stock, not counting additives that may contain small amounts of Group IV/V.

The MSDS sheets I've seen for Syntec indicate that the base oil blend is a cocktail of Group III, IV, and V. In fact, it's virtually impossible to make some SAE grades out of nothing but Group III, 5w50 and 20w50 for example. 15w40 and 10w40 would probably be a stretch, but you could do it if you had an extremely shear stable VI improver.

I will admit that Castrol Syntec in some grades may have some PAO (such as GC 0W-30). It is also common knowledge that Castrol sold in the EU is different than that sold in the US. I should have been more clear and said that Castrol Syntec is a Group III oil for for the viscosities used by most American and Japanese cars (5W-20, 5w30, and 10w30).

I will also admit that some additive packages have small amounts of Group IV/V products, but I would not consider that to be base stock if the amounts of Group IV/V are less than 5%. However, thank you for clarifying the situation. If you could post a link to the MSDS you mentioned, that would be helpful.

 

[Mark888]

Originally Posted By: buster
Katrina & Rita hit the refining end of the business hard. Ike got less attention, but that storm had a very severe impact on the lube business. PAO is very short in the whole industry, still. Lots of suppliers are reformulating on the fly, partiall substituting Grp III & boosting the AO to compensate. Of necessity, this is not being done in the usual anal-retentive, by-the-numbers style that the product development function prefers. Right now is an inopportune time to make a long-term judgement of an oil's (or supplier's) quality based on what's currently on the shelf.

It is certainly possible that M1 changed its 5w30 for a short time after Hurricane Ike when their PAO plant was damaged. That could account for the "tests" done by Valvoline, and also account for the fact that race teams and manufacturers seem to have not abandoned M1 (for example, if they are back to normal formula).