If you look at the different specs, pour points, approval ratings, etc. of the various Mobil 1 motor oils, you realize there have to be some major differences in mixes, additives, etc. There are only 2 price points: Mobil 1 and the more expensive Mobil 1 EP. I liken this to the situation with Castrol Syntec. Those are all the same price point yet clearly, the "German Castrol" 0W-30 is a superior product and most likely carries a higher manufacturing cost. I guess I will reserve judgement on Mobil 1 until some of their other formulations are given an analysis with the gas chromatograph.
M1 EP 15W-50 Goes Group III
- Thread starter Tom NJ
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Patman
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It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the regular Mobil 1 is also using a group 3 base too. It would be odd for Mobil to change the EP product, which is supposed to be the "best of the best", but then not change the rest of the lineup too.
It just seems so odd that they would even do this, for an oil that is supposed to be designed for longer drain intervals, this is a very backwards step for them.
Just look at Amsoil, who is clearly the pioneer in terms of long drain intervals, and they clearly admit that their group 3 XL lineup is not the right choice for long drain intervals. So how does Mobil honestly think their EP oil is going to perform in long drain intervals now that it's a group 3?
That may be true but I am looking at a bottle of Mobil 1 0W-40 which claims a pour point of -65 degrees F. I don't see how they can keep any mostly Group III mix liquid at that temperature.
Buster, in your pointed post to me you stated "You also said M1 is esterless, but it isn't." It would seem that from Tom's GC results, the sample tested had no ester as a component...
Hmmmmm...... It would certainly appear to support my comments regarding Mobil 1 and Delvac 1 no longer containing an ester component.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Hmmmmm...... It would certainly appear to support my comments regarding Mobil 1 and Delvac 1 no longer containing an ester component.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
This thread has pretty much convinced me to just switch to GC 0W-30. I have used it on and off but for right now I'll go with it 100%. After all it (IMHO) gives the best UOA's anyway.
Also, even though I am not educated on the analytical methods used to determine that Mobil 1 is partially Group III/AN. I seeem to recall some years ago many of us kicked in 15 bucks each to get the ultimate analysis done on German Castrol. After hundreds of dollars of testing the answer was. "We don't know"
Also, even though I am not educated on the analytical methods used to determine that Mobil 1 is partially Group III/AN. I seeem to recall some years ago many of us kicked in 15 bucks each to get the ultimate analysis done on German Castrol. After hundreds of dollars of testing the answer was. "We don't know"
Remember though, their is a good amount of Group V in the mix. (AN's). They also contain some PAO. The 0w-40 I would bet is mostly PAO. The U.K. MSDS says PAO. The Japanese website also states only PAO for that particular viscosity grade.
George, the 5w-30 EP showed some POE and here is Mobil's own words:
George, the 5w-30 EP showed some POE and here is Mobil's own words:
Ultimately, we are going to have to judge Mobil 1 based on performance. If we can get good UOA's above 10 to 12,000 miles, watch the stuff pour at extreme cold, observe minimal breakdown at very high engine temperatures, no sludge formation in engines known to be sludgemonsters, etc., that will be the proof of the pudding. And if does that, I frankly don't care if it's made from cat urine.
I wouldn't even normally be interested by a finding like this, except that it relates to the one company that resisted the Group III "synthetic" trend, to the point of suing a major competitor over the nomenclature.
For the biggest synthetic player of them all, the one who largely developed the consumer market for the stuff, the one who has steadfastly defined a synthetic base as never including Group III, this is indeed a groundshaking event if true.
That they're charging the prices they do for this oil if it is true is another story altogether.
For the biggest synthetic player of them all, the one who largely developed the consumer market for the stuff, the one who has steadfastly defined a synthetic base as never including Group III, this is indeed a groundshaking event if true.
That they're charging the prices they do for this oil if it is true is another story altogether.
Well, they can charge what ever they want. If & when the data is confirmed, their creditability will be shot & so will their market share.
There is enough fact here to say that is the direction we are headed.
And the www is a vehicle for news like this to travel faster than any marketing spin control can nip.
There is enough fact here to say that is the direction we are headed.
And the www is a vehicle for news like this to travel faster than any marketing spin control can nip.
Hi George,
Our analysis did find polyol ester (TMP C8C10), but the dosage is very small. The 10W-30 EP from 2004 showed about 2% and the recent 5W-30 EP even less. It appears that they would like to have some ester present, but the quantities are really not significant.
Tom
Our analysis did find polyol ester (TMP C8C10), but the dosage is very small. The 10W-30 EP from 2004 showed about 2% and the recent 5W-30 EP even less. It appears that they would like to have some ester present, but the quantities are really not significant.
Tom
Maybe we'll see better iron numbers now from Mobil 1 UOAs now
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You know, I have thought of Emailinge technical support but think it's wasted effort. They are not technical, they are public relations. Why would they waste a chemist or skilled blender to talk to the public when they can sit someone at a phone bank or in a cubicle and have them use a drop down menu to anwer technical questions? The latter is what I feel is being done, we have more insight than many of the public relations people answering the questions.
I think they are going to do the normal reutine and wait the firestorm out. Technically their wording is correct. They like to use the terms "Including PAO" "Synthetic base oils" and "Using PAO technology" They never state that the oils are made up primarily of PAO.
I think they are going to do the normal reutine and wait the firestorm out. Technically their wording is correct. They like to use the terms "Including PAO" "Synthetic base oils" and "Using PAO technology" They never state that the oils are made up primarily of PAO.
Hi Buster,
Just to claify, we are showing a mixture of PAO, AN, ester, and Group III. It has not converted over to Group III like so many other synthetic oils, but appears to be a Group III, IV, and V mix. From my point of view that is a great mix, but remember that performance is all that matters, not how the formulator got there, and the additives are critical. I still believe in M1 and use it.
Tom
Just to claify, we are showing a mixture of PAO, AN, ester, and Group III. It has not converted over to Group III like so many other synthetic oils, but appears to be a Group III, IV, and V mix. From my point of view that is a great mix, but remember that performance is all that matters, not how the formulator got there, and the additives are critical. I still believe in M1 and use it.
Tom
Tom,
I greatly appreciate all the professional expertise you have brought to this forum. I find all your posts very significant and now look forward to finding them when I log on here. They all have factual meat behind them and never budge the B***S*** meter. Keep 'em coming.
But I would make doubly sure of your results in this particular instance and be very careful in how you phrase them, simply as a CYA measure.
What you are saying is potentially a very potent statement, and this is essentially a publication to the world. Big powerful eyes may be watching, and yours may not be considered mere opinion. The truth, however, is typically unassailable.
I don't want to chill anything. Just looking out for you.
I greatly appreciate all the professional expertise you have brought to this forum. I find all your posts very significant and now look forward to finding them when I log on here. They all have factual meat behind them and never budge the B***S*** meter. Keep 'em coming.
But I would make doubly sure of your results in this particular instance and be very careful in how you phrase them, simply as a CYA measure.
What you are saying is potentially a very potent statement, and this is essentially a publication to the world. Big powerful eyes may be watching, and yours may not be considered mere opinion. The truth, however, is typically unassailable.
I don't want to chill anything. Just looking out for you.
Yes, I agree it's the performance that counts. In light of that, I can't help but recall some comments made by one of the Tribologists here. Seems like over the past year or so, M1's performance hasn't been as good as it has been in the past. If things have just recently changed, those comments may not apply.
It's also difficult to forget the ruckus Mobil caused with the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus on the use of the term "synthetic".
On another note, let's look at some numbers. We have a good idea that esters are used in the 1-2% range. AN is generally used in the 17-20% range. Let's give 10% for the add pack, and 5% for the Super-syn PAO. That leaves about 65% for the base oil. So is it something like 30% Group III and 35% PAO? Or 45% Group III and 20% PAO? According to your first post, it sounds more like the latter.
Quote:
Just shot some M1 EP 15W-50 into the Gas Chromatograph and was surprised to find it based mostly on mineral oil (presumably Group III) plus a good slug of AN. It may also contain a small amount of PAO, but so small that I can't be certain.
Et tu, Brute?
Tom
Lol well, I don't know what to say about this thread. The word amazing comes to mind. I'd like to thank every member who posted thus far and especially Tom. I second what Volvohead said. While I value all of our resident experts you Sir are a remarkable resource.
427, I'm beginning to get the impression there is some piling on of weight to the lid of Pandora's Box.
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