Parasynthetic compatibility - Schaeffer's 15w-40

[siriusc1024]

Air cooled Deutz diesel. 10L oil capacity.

Schaeffer's 700 15w-40 SynShield has been used for years. Just put in the last of the oil stash and it's time to resupply. I'd like to switch to John Deere Plus 50 II 15w-40.

The complication comes due to a slight oil consumption issue requiring an occasional top-off. Instead of buying another gallon of the Schaeffer's I'd like to make sure it's safe to use the Plus 50?

Looking at Schaeffer's data they call their oil a parasynthetic blend. What I've gathered is parasynthetic means a blend of PAO and mineral oil. First of all, I thought mixing PAOs with Group II or III was a bad idea.

Is there something about the chemistry of the Schaeffer's, such as some type of emulsifier, that allows for the blend? Will I upset the chemistry by adding the JD Plus 50?

- Thank you

 

[zrxkawboy]

First of all, I thought mixing PAOs with Group II or III was a bad idea.

Welcome! I have used Conklin Convoy for decades, and it was traditionally a Grp 2/4 blend, now Grp 2/3/4. So, nothing wrong with that mix. Sorry that I can't help with your other question...I know nothing about the JD oil.

 

[Jetronic]

Pao's get blended with grp III oils all the time.

 

[siriusc1024]

Thank you for the reply's.

So the end-user can blend any ratio of PAO with mineral? Or is it that the manufacturer's blend allows for compatibility?

That's what I was hung up on. Is there something in the blend that is added so that the two are miscible? If it's the case that PAO's are 100% compatible with mineral oils without any modifier then of course I'd be comfortable mixing myself.

 

[siriusc1024]

Any clarification?

 

[facility1]

most oils can be compatible, why not just get more Schaeffer's supreme 7000, it is a good oil or for a bit more the 9000 series full synthetic. I believe that Deutz are known for oil consumption as they are also air cooled and run warm.

 

[Rand]

Thank you for the reply's.

So the end-user can blend any ratio of PAO with mineral? Or is it that the manufacturer's blend allows for compatibility?

That's what I was hung up on. Is there something in the blend that is added so that the two are miscible? If it's the case that PAO's are 100% compatible with mineral oils without any modifier then of course I'd be comfortable mixing myself.

you arent dumping in 100% pao. at most you would be adding a fully formulated PAO based engine oil.
which is not 100% pao.. usually not even close except some niche products like RAVENOL
but even that isnt 100% pao. You have additive carrier and other products blended in.

a mix or blend of multiple oils usually is worse than 1 oil
They are compatible and miscible. Doesnt mean its a great idea.

I would just top off with a value 15w40 such as delvac 1300 ($12.47 gallon)
and then use the JD oil next oci.


I wouldnt pay the $$$ for the deere engine oil.
when Delvac extreme 15w40 full syn at walmart is a bargain at 19.77 but that is another discussion.

 

[kschachn]

PAO and straight-chain hydrocarbons are miscible.

And as noted there are no 100% PAO motor oils. That would have undesirable characteristics.

A little unclear if this thread is another brand advertisement or the typical “what’s a real synthetic” in disguise.

 

[MolaKule]

Air cooled Deutz diesel. 10L oil capacity.

Schaeffer's 700 15w-40 SynShield has been used for years. Just put in the last of the oil stash and it's time to resupply. I'd like to switch to John Deere Plus 50 II 15w-40.

The complication comes due to a slight oil consumption issue requiring an occasional top-off. Instead of buying another gallon of the Schaeffer's I'd like to make sure it's safe to use the Plus 50?

Looking at Schaeffer's data they call their oil a parasynthetic blend. What I've gathered is parasynthetic means a blend of PAO and mineral oil. First of all, I thought mixing PAOs with Group II or III was a bad idea.

Is there something about the chemistry of the Schaeffer's, such as some type of emulsifier, that allows for the blend? Will I upset the chemistry by adding the JD Plus 50?

- Thank you

Historically, Schaeffer's was one of the first blenders in the Industrial, Trucking, and Farm markets to offer what was then called, "para-synthetics," which were mainly Group II and PAO blends, about 25%-50% PAO and about 50-75% Group II. I believe their 700 series of products were these para-synthetics. They also had other products that were also "blends" that purported to enhance performance solely over Group II bases at a lower cost than full synthetics currently on the market.

These products are mixable or "miscible" with any other comparable lubricants.

 

[kschachn]

Historically, Schaeffer's was one of the first blenders in the Industrial, Trucking, and Farm markets to offer what was then called, "para-synthetics," which were mainly Group II and PAO blends, about 25%-50% PAO and about 50-75% Group II. I believe their 700 series of products were these para-synthetics. They also had other products that were also "blends" that purported to enhance performance solely over Group II bases at a lower cost than full synthetics currently on the market.

These products are mixable or "miscible" with any other comparable lubricants.

That sounds similar to Chevron’s “Synthetic Technology”.

 

[siriusc1024]

Awesome thank you everyone for the info. I'm glad to hear from many of you, including MolaKule (who I was hoping would lend expertise) that it's safe to blend PAO's and mineral oils.

Sorry for the confusion, but I guess the real question was - can I myself mix para and mineral? It wasn't so much about brand selection and merits.

TLDR is this is a Deutz powering a Carlton 7500 stump grinder. It's my grandfather's, but I maintenance it for him when I'm around because he's 90yrs old.

I was changing oil and realized I didn't have enough Schaeffers to refill. He had previously purchased a bulk quantity from a dealer, but that was the last of it. Had some Delo on the shelf, but reading the Scaeffers info about parasynthetic got me confused. Happened to find another 1/2 gal Schaeffer's in a toolbox that got the job done.

FWIW I want the JD Plus 50 II over the Schaeffer's because:
- high heat tolerance (air cooled)
- high film strength (91,273psi according to 540rat)
- cheaper than Schaeffers. It's $28.75/gal. Not bad.
- no more Schaeffer's dealer. The guy happened to see us at a gas station one day and tried to convince us to put the Schaeffer's in everything, including the 4 personal gas powered vehicles. Uh no, snake.

Better and cheaper. Can't beat that. Personally, I'm not going to run any other HDEO because the application is high duty cycle on an air cooled engine. It's also his primary source of income, and I'm not going to cut corners.

So, thanks to all the feedback from you people in the know, I feel comfortable topping off with the JD. Thank you everyone!

 

[kschachn]

Awesome thank you everyone for the info. I'm glad to hear from many of you, including MolaKule (who I was hoping would lend expertise) that it's safe to blend PAO's and mineral oils.

Sorry for the confusion, but I guess the real question was - can I myself mix para and mineral? It wasn't so much about brand selection and merits.

TLDR is this is a Deutz powering a Carlton 7500 stump grinder. It's my grandfather's, but I maintenance it for him when I'm around because he's 90yrs old.

I was changing oil and realized I didn't have enough Schaeffers to refill. He had previously purchased a bulk quantity from a dealer, but that was the last of it. Had some Delo on the shelf, but reading the Scaeffers info about parasynthetic got me confused. Happened to find another 1/2 gal Schaeffer's in a toolbox that got the job done.

FWIW I want the JD Plus 50 II over the Schaeffer's because:
- high heat tolerance (air cooled)
- high film strength (91,273psi according to 540rat)
- cheaper than Schaeffers. It's $28.75/gal. Not bad.
- no more Schaeffer's dealer. The guy happened to see us at a gas station one day and tried to convince us to put the Schaeffer's in everything, including the 4 personal gas powered vehicles. Uh no, snake.

Better and cheaper. Can't beat that. Personally, I'm not going to run any other HDEO because the application is high duty cycle on an air cooled engine. It's also his primary source of income, and I'm not going to cut corners.

So, thanks to all the feedback from you people in the know, I feel comfortable topping off with the JD. Thank you everyone!

What’s being said is that “parasynthetic” and “mineral” are essentially the same molecules so if the Schaeffer’s product does indeed contain PAO then you’ve already mixed it. I don’t see where you’re adding anything that is unusual. Regardless they are miscible which is guaranteed via the API license. Yes you will “upset the chemistry” because of different additive formulations. Being miscible does not make any guarantee of performance, only guaranteeing the resulting mixture will not separate and cause harm.

And that film strength value is useless for gauging quality. Perform your own taste test and get the same level of determination.

 

[siriusc1024]

Both seem to be top notch oils. Definitely not knocking Schaeffer's here. The JD product info is comprehensive. I especially like the consideration for off-road applications. Another thing I've noticed about JD is that, despite the right-to-repair problem, they make solid products. I believe the 500hr advertised interval. Not that I'd approach it, but that's remarkable.

Considering use-case, it makes more sense than running Delvac/Rotella/Delo. I've given up on Mobil products anyway. I think they rested on their laurels for too long, and other suppliers caught up or surpassed. The only good thing they have is Polyrex EM grease.

To me it comes down to metal-metal contact protection (Schaeffer's) vs preventing metal-metal contact (JD Plus 50 II). Otherwise the two are are robust oils that fit the application.

I'll keep an eye on it like you said.

 

[wwillson]

I believe the 500hr advertised interval.

I wish we had data on Plus-50 that has been run for 500 hours in the new high specific power engines.

 

[kschachn]

To me it comes down to metal-metal contact protection (Schaeffer's) vs preventing metal-metal contact (JD Plus 50 II). Otherwise the two are are robust oils that fit the application.

Absolutely, but not the film strength. That isn't the metric here. Sure those videos are fun to watch and who doesn't like a resulting "ranking" that everyone can relate to?

Complete nonsense, but it does seem popular what with all the screeching and smoke. It's quite the show.

 

[siriusc1024]

It is nonsense, but I'm not talking wear scar. Or that error-prone machine. The only way wear scar is done correctly is 4-ball timken. Even then it's a test of EP additives meant for greases.

I'm talking measurement of the point where oil film breaks down. Force on engine components psi has to be supported by psi film strength.

 

[kschachn]

It is nonsense, but I'm not talking wear scar. Or that error-prone machine. The only way wear scar is done correctly is 4-ball timken. Even then it's a test of EP additives meant for greases.

I'm talking measurement of the point where oil film breaks down. Force on engine components psi has to be supported by psi film strength.

You think so? What would support that notion?

Which ASTM or ISO test is applicable for determining 'psi film strength" in finished motor oils as used in an engine? Which of the Sequences performs those tests?

Some people just really, really want this sort of "ranking" to work, even though it will not. A screening test for certain additives is one thing but not for finished products.

 

[siriusc1024]

I have tools to observe oil performance in my vehicle. My own taste test, as you put it:
- Oil pressure gauge to monitor for viscosity, temperature stability, and shear.
- Drain plug magnet for wear.
- Dipstick and catchcan for oil consumption and evaporative loss.
- My ears for valvetrain noise.

My observed results happen to line up with 540Rat's ranking. I've tried many oils, and I've browsed this site many times before joining.

I joined because I had a specific question that I figured could be answered by specialists here. I'm not a chemist. When I read about PAO/mineral blend, what popped into my mind were things like ligands, cross-linking, polymerization, and the potential need for stabilizing buffering agents. Quick research shows that PAO and mineral are compatible, but I was concerned about long term stability in a working engine.

My question was answered by a few of you, one of which I know is a chemist.

As to how we evaluate the best oil? If you or anyone could answer that conclusively then explain the persistence of this site.

VOA? Blackstone? Should I be selecting for calcium, zinc, phosphorus, boron, or molybdenum? Maybe the advertisements from the oil companies. It's not that simple.

The primary function of oil is to support a load. How the hydrodynamic forces, temperature, contaminant level, and addpack interact to achieve this is a secondary concern. The results I can see for myself, and it's pretty conclusive. Film strength.

QS synthetic works amazingly in my cammed LS, but I'm not about to put it into this Deutz. API cert comes first, then viscosity in cSt, but after that I'm going for film strength and temperature stability always.

 

[MolaKule]

@siriusc1024 "My observed results happen to line up with 540Rat's ranking."

Nothing in 540rats stuff is even close to having any supporting scientific basis so I would not rely on any of that data.

Your questions on compatibility have been answered.

 

[siriusc1024]

Yes they have thanks again.