Patman
Staff member
This is a good weekend for Canadians to stock up on GC then, since it's on sale for $5.99 a liter at Canadian Tire.
M1 EP 15W-50 Goes Group III
- Thread starter Tom NJ
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This is a good weekend for Canadians to stock up on GC then, since it's on sale for $5.99 a liter at Canadian Tire.
Oh, man....now everyone knows. Guess I'll have to line up tomorrow morning before the doors open...
Tom, out of curiosity why do you use M1 PCMO if you could formulate your own lubes using Hatco POE bases for your own car ? Heck we do that and we don't have as much access to raw materials as you do.
Since I am independent it gives me some flexibility in doing work like this. I never want to disclose a proprietary formula or harm even a competitor, I know you feel the same way but this can be risky. XOM has deep pockets that exceed Hatco's. There are prying and knowledgable eyes here that have vested interests that oppose most that frequent this board. Some of the larger ones are even sponsors!
Since I have to pay out of pocket for GCMS work and then compare to what limited signatures I have to known formulas, what you have done is interesting and welcome. More detail for me with a MS chemist interpretation would be helpful.
Since it is a fact that I would never get another job as a hired analysis gun and I will remain in the cheap seats on this one.
If Hatco can supply GCMS or other testing for Dyson Analysis or ever needs formulating work done for building a line of automotive oriented lubes please give us a call. You would not be the first maker of POE to ask us to do that!
Terry
Since I am independent it gives me some flexibility in doing work like this. I never want to disclose a proprietary formula or harm even a competitor, I know you feel the same way but this can be risky. XOM has deep pockets that exceed Hatco's. There are prying and knowledgable eyes here that have vested interests that oppose most that frequent this board. Some of the larger ones are even sponsors!
Since I have to pay out of pocket for GCMS work and then compare to what limited signatures I have to known formulas, what you have done is interesting and welcome. More detail for me with a MS chemist interpretation would be helpful.
Since it is a fact that I would never get another job as a hired analysis gun and I will remain in the cheap seats on this one.
If Hatco can supply GCMS or other testing for Dyson Analysis or ever needs formulating work done for building a line of automotive oriented lubes please give us a call. You would not be the first maker of POE to ask us to do that!
Terry
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Are you trying to scare Tom off? I do not propose Tom do anything illegal but any and all insight he gives is a blessing on this board. I highly doubt XOM cares about us or visits this site. Who has a vested interest in this site? Whom are the larger ones? What can you provide to Tom his company can not already do for themselves?
Quote:
Are you trying to scare Tom off? I do not propose Tom do anything illegal but any and all insight he gives is a blessing on this board. I highly doubt XOM cares about us or visits this site. Who has a vested interest in this site? Whom are the larger ones? What can you provide to Tom his company can not already do for themselves?
If you think XOM is not reading this forum and others than you are seriously mistaken. OEM's watch this stuff...this is where truths and lies are bred.
MY..MY..MY..MY..MY!
I read the whole thing this evening and it's like finding out that UFO's and Cosmic Aliens exist!
GORT! Klatu barada niktoe! For cryin' out loud!
Very enlightening and entertaining and educating for me.
What does it all mean?
Buy good oil when it's on sale, suited for your particular needs, and don't worry about it. Change early and change often.
That's ALL you can do, so drive and enjoy your car
What does this do for Mobil 1's reputation with me?
The way XOM has handled our questions?
It will work itself out, really.
I'll be waiting to see what will ultimately occur.
I read the whole thing this evening and it's like finding out that UFO's and Cosmic Aliens exist!
Very enlightening and entertaining and educating for me.
What does it all mean?
Buy good oil when it's on sale, suited for your particular needs, and don't worry about it. Change early and change often.
That's ALL you can do, so drive and enjoy your car
What does this do for Mobil 1's reputation with me?
The way XOM has handled our questions?
It will work itself out, really.
I'll be waiting to see what will ultimately occur.
They watch it, probably but they watch their profits more. If their profits drop on Mobil 1 and they find the reason is bc people are unhappy with Group III, something might change. But don't bet the farm on it bc Mobil 1 is a very small part of their business. And they are making outrageous profits elsewhere. Mobil 1 will continue to be a very good oil. But it will be over-priced.. I'm just not willing to get price-gouged-thank-you very much.
Hi Terry,
I have scratched out countless "perfect" motor oil formulations on paper over the years but haven't blended any. I am a conservative sort and prefer engine-tested formulas constructed by people with more motor oil formulating technology than I have. While Hatco led the synthetic technology in the 1970s with the first qualified synthetic motor oil, diesel oil, gear oil, and 100:1 2-cycle oil, they dropped out of the formulated automotive oil business in the late 1980s - volumes were too small, major oil competition too high, and costs for the continuous upgrading of specifications prohibitive. Hence my knowledge of formulating oils for modern engines is a bit rusty.
It is not illegal to analyze motor oils or to discuss the compositions online. If it was we should all run for the hills! If I was wrong in my assessment that might be another story, but there is certainly no malicious intent, nor did I say anthing bad about their products. If EM convinced me that my conclusions are wrong I would immediately post it here, apologize deeply to the good people here, and do what I can to rectify the situation.
When Castrol went Group III word got around very fast and they took a beating from the purists, and still are, but that is only one element of a business decision. Oil companies understand that formulation changes will not remain secret for long and it is only a matter of time before it becomes legitimately known. They also understand that they can’t please all market segments, and no matter what they do some group will be upset. Still they must get on running their business. And remember, the registered members of BITOG represent 0.0002% of the global population, and most of these are not active or reading this. And of those who are, only a small percentage are M1 users and many will not change, including me. I can’t imagine this thread having a measurable effect on EM’s earnings.
Using Group III is a smart move for a business and not really a betrayal. Oil companies are not selling a formula, they are selling a performance level, and are free to change the formulation anytime they please so long as their claims match the performance level they are selling. To my knowledge EM has never claimed that their synthetic oils have no Group III, only that they are based on “synthetic” base oils including PAOs. It would be foolish for a company to take such a definitive stand against a class of chemistry as it closes the door forever on them changing their minds or responding to market trends. The purists have inferred from their statements that they would never use a Group III, perhaps because they wanted to believe it, but EM did nothing wrong in my humble opinion. As for the price, value is determined by each buyer. I am willing to pay more for M1, not because of its composition, but because I respect their history, quality, and reputation. There is value in that name that I will shell out a few more bucks for, just as many people continue to buy the Castrol Group III synthetics.
Regarding business opportunities with Dyson, best we take that off-line. Please feel free to call me.
Tom
I have scratched out countless "perfect" motor oil formulations on paper over the years but haven't blended any. I am a conservative sort and prefer engine-tested formulas constructed by people with more motor oil formulating technology than I have. While Hatco led the synthetic technology in the 1970s with the first qualified synthetic motor oil, diesel oil, gear oil, and 100:1 2-cycle oil, they dropped out of the formulated automotive oil business in the late 1980s - volumes were too small, major oil competition too high, and costs for the continuous upgrading of specifications prohibitive. Hence my knowledge of formulating oils for modern engines is a bit rusty.
It is not illegal to analyze motor oils or to discuss the compositions online. If it was we should all run for the hills! If I was wrong in my assessment that might be another story, but there is certainly no malicious intent, nor did I say anthing bad about their products. If EM convinced me that my conclusions are wrong I would immediately post it here, apologize deeply to the good people here, and do what I can to rectify the situation.
When Castrol went Group III word got around very fast and they took a beating from the purists, and still are, but that is only one element of a business decision. Oil companies understand that formulation changes will not remain secret for long and it is only a matter of time before it becomes legitimately known. They also understand that they can’t please all market segments, and no matter what they do some group will be upset. Still they must get on running their business. And remember, the registered members of BITOG represent 0.0002% of the global population, and most of these are not active or reading this. And of those who are, only a small percentage are M1 users and many will not change, including me. I can’t imagine this thread having a measurable effect on EM’s earnings.
Using Group III is a smart move for a business and not really a betrayal. Oil companies are not selling a formula, they are selling a performance level, and are free to change the formulation anytime they please so long as their claims match the performance level they are selling. To my knowledge EM has never claimed that their synthetic oils have no Group III, only that they are based on “synthetic” base oils including PAOs. It would be foolish for a company to take such a definitive stand against a class of chemistry as it closes the door forever on them changing their minds or responding to market trends. The purists have inferred from their statements that they would never use a Group III, perhaps because they wanted to believe it, but EM did nothing wrong in my humble opinion. As for the price, value is determined by each buyer. I am willing to pay more for M1, not because of its composition, but because I respect their history, quality, and reputation. There is value in that name that I will shell out a few more bucks for, just as many people continue to buy the Castrol Group III synthetics.
Regarding business opportunities with Dyson, best we take that off-line. Please feel free to call me.
Tom
Tom:
Very well put. I could not agree more with what you said. It is the final formula that makes any oil perform to what ever standard it was designed to do, and there is value in the name of any given brand if that's what works best for you.
And as for as XM trying to keep their formula a secret from other oil companies, forget it. I can assure you that every major oil company out there has torn down the formulation of their competitors. They do have that capibility.
This has been a most entertaining thread to read and for the most part it has been very civil, which I appreciate. I have no proof of this and I am not a chemist, but I was told years ago that Mobil 1 Tri-synthetic (3) had PAO, POE, and Group III in it.
And as for as cost to produce, it takes billions to make a refinery that will produce a good Group III base stock. If we want to complain about the cost of something, let's complain about the cost of a gallon of milk. The hardest part about that process is still just squeezing a cows teet.
Very well put. I could not agree more with what you said. It is the final formula that makes any oil perform to what ever standard it was designed to do, and there is value in the name of any given brand if that's what works best for you.
And as for as XM trying to keep their formula a secret from other oil companies, forget it. I can assure you that every major oil company out there has torn down the formulation of their competitors. They do have that capibility.
This has been a most entertaining thread to read and for the most part it has been very civil, which I appreciate. I have no proof of this and I am not a chemist, but I was told years ago that Mobil 1 Tri-synthetic (3) had PAO, POE, and Group III in it.
And as for as cost to produce, it takes billions to make a refinery that will produce a good Group III base stock. If we want to complain about the cost of something, let's complain about the cost of a gallon of milk. The hardest part about that process is still just squeezing a cows teet.
didn't the cost of PAO gone up significantly within the past year? maybe to keep mobil 1 syn competitive price wise they switched to group 3 instead and as mentioned to keep the same performance. would walmart carry their oil for $10/qt?
There is a perception, crafted by Mobil with decades of advertising, that Mobil 1 is something special, a better oil worth a higher price. Even if in reality Mobil 1 still is something special, if it loses the perception that it is special, then it won't be able to command a higher price.
Well said Tom. The principle behind this irks me enough not to buy the oil but I'm not dumb enough to believe XOM cares anything about a bunch of yahoos on an internet oil forum. They're in biz to make money. But I will say one thing. If the oil in question is more than 50% Group III they have some cohones for pushing the product's image the way they have for so long.
I also wonder about what Johnny said. I'm sure it's true every oil company out there analyzes it's competitor's products. I mean, look what you were doing
. Not that I'm doubting you but it seems odd to me this wouldn't have already come out by now. Anyway no matter how all this turns out I hope you'll remain active here.
I also wonder about what Johnny said. I'm sure it's true every oil company out there analyzes it's competitor's products. I mean, look what you were doing
Tom is VP of Marketing and Sales of Hatco and well respected in the industry so if he says thats what he saw using in-house GCMS testing then like Bruce I accept his results.
I am not attacking him or scaring him, what he did is NOT illegal. I just know what happens when you shake the tree of the biggies and what fallout can take place.
Regardless of that this board was founded to dispel rumors and do the best we can with available resources to make informed choices. To mitigate marketing bull poopoo and focus on performance and value.
Marketing obfuscation is what is frustrating most of those reading this thread.
On the flip side there is a coming threat to lube makers from China primarily that will knock a big dent in domestic US lube formulating, production, and retail sales. The Biggies are moving to protect that market and have their hands deep into the pacific to try to capitolize on the threat.
Heck many domestic companies using GRPIII are getting the stocks from Korea because it is cheaper.
Like each and every one of us, I want a fair deal, a honest shake when I put something as important as lubricant ( the life blood) in my family car.
Most of us cannot afford exotic reverse engineering capable testing, nor would it be beneficial to the bottom line, which for you as a consumer is performance/value. Thats why I have harped on using basic (properly interpreted) oil analysis at least annually to determine what works and to contain the costs of the second most expensive item for the family or individual ( their car).
Here's another point that the consumer is responsible for and a young student poster here so wisely shared, basic economic theory. If you want the best you'd better vote with your dollars.
Case in point. Molakules Specialty Formulations makes the most cutting edge lubes using more esters in them than ANY other formulator I know of , even motul. However because he is a scientist and does not have a major marketing push,or flashy advertizing budget, few here or in the lube marketplace will buy or demand he make PCMO so we can buy his engine oil formulas. Currently he has a 20w50 racing oil that is out of control cutting edge, yet, my own oil analysis customers who could benefit from it refuse to email him or take the time to pursue purchasing it. If more would bother and demand a 0w/5w20, 10w30, etc. he would produce them. I know because I have tested many wonderful REAL FULLY SYNTHETIC formulas for his company. His prices are not even that expensive per unit.
While there is wailing and gnashing of teeth remember as a consumer you drive demand for these products. And that it boils down to chemistry and what the final formulation is capable of doing for you at a reasonable price.
Terry
I am not attacking him or scaring him, what he did is NOT illegal. I just know what happens when you shake the tree of the biggies and what fallout can take place.
Regardless of that this board was founded to dispel rumors and do the best we can with available resources to make informed choices. To mitigate marketing bull poopoo and focus on performance and value.
Marketing obfuscation is what is frustrating most of those reading this thread.
On the flip side there is a coming threat to lube makers from China primarily that will knock a big dent in domestic US lube formulating, production, and retail sales. The Biggies are moving to protect that market and have their hands deep into the pacific to try to capitolize on the threat.
Heck many domestic companies using GRPIII are getting the stocks from Korea because it is cheaper.
Like each and every one of us, I want a fair deal, a honest shake when I put something as important as lubricant ( the life blood) in my family car.
Most of us cannot afford exotic reverse engineering capable testing, nor would it be beneficial to the bottom line, which for you as a consumer is performance/value. Thats why I have harped on using basic (properly interpreted) oil analysis at least annually to determine what works and to contain the costs of the second most expensive item for the family or individual ( their car).
Here's another point that the consumer is responsible for and a young student poster here so wisely shared, basic economic theory. If you want the best you'd better vote with your dollars.
Case in point. Molakules Specialty Formulations makes the most cutting edge lubes using more esters in them than ANY other formulator I know of , even motul. However because he is a scientist and does not have a major marketing push,or flashy advertizing budget, few here or in the lube marketplace will buy or demand he make PCMO so we can buy his engine oil formulas. Currently he has a 20w50 racing oil that is out of control cutting edge, yet, my own oil analysis customers who could benefit from it refuse to email him or take the time to pursue purchasing it. If more would bother and demand a 0w/5w20, 10w30, etc. he would produce them. I know because I have tested many wonderful REAL FULLY SYNTHETIC formulas for his company. His prices are not even that expensive per unit.
While there is wailing and gnashing of teeth remember as a consumer you drive demand for these products. And that it boils down to chemistry and what the final formulation is capable of doing for you at a reasonable price.
Terry
Hello everybody,
Interesting as always. I won't go into all my thinking on the components involved in MOBIL'S decisions on this, but I believe that there is nothing that they are unaware of, or taken into consideration. You aren't the Big Fish, in the Ocean, by missing the details.
I think it is purely an Economic Decision. If the formulation(s) stayed the same the price would have climbed to near $10. a quart, soon. The reformulation will do an adequate or maybe better job of protection. The Auto Makers will have to tell us that, as they will be the only one's who have knowledge of the specifics and can engineer the solutions.
XOM will lose money, if sales drop drastically, but they may have lost more money if they didn't make the change.
I wish them success, but I would like an answer to, if the oils are still as advertised?
Here we go again...
Interesting as always. I won't go into all my thinking on the components involved in MOBIL'S decisions on this, but I believe that there is nothing that they are unaware of, or taken into consideration. You aren't the Big Fish, in the Ocean, by missing the details.
I think it is purely an Economic Decision. If the formulation(s) stayed the same the price would have climbed to near $10. a quart, soon. The reformulation will do an adequate or maybe better job of protection. The Auto Makers will have to tell us that, as they will be the only one's who have knowledge of the specifics and can engineer the solutions.
XOM will lose money, if sales drop drastically, but they may have lost more money if they didn't make the change.
I wish them success, but I would like an answer to, if the oils are still as advertised?
Here we go again...
Terry, I believe what Tom says. Just seems odd no one spilled these beans before. Btw I seriously doubt Molakule will take any issue with what you said
. I wondered why he doesn't offer engine oils. So you're saying you think there wouldn't be enough of a demand based on his limited advertising or am I reading you wrong? I'd be willing to use them.
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