Yep, once these slow learners educate themselves and see the fault in their logic, they stop repeating it. However, we continually get new members with the same faulty reasoning.quote:
Originally posted by 2004 F150 4x4:
We've read similar comments about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times.
Yeah…. Proof that some people are real slow learners would’nt you say?
I already answered that question for you Ugly. If 5w-20 was the design lube for the original engine, it would have been specified for the original engine. It would also be specified for the same engines overseas. With said facts in mind, anybody with a brain and a little knowledge of CAFE can deduce that somebody came to the engineers and said, "Hey Ford is doing this light oil thing...., can we do that too to improve mileage without having our engines fail under warranty"? And they came back and said, "yeah.....we can if the lube meets this Ford specification. However, our conventional knowledge of hydrodynamic lubrication and experience cannot be discarded. We specified that same engines run 5W-30, 10W-30 and 10W-40 lubricants and time has proven that this was good advice as they seem to run forever with lubes. We also must understand that we may have bearing inlet viscositites under 5 or so centistokes in these engines in some operating conditions under some climates and both scientific studies and a fundamental knowledge of lubrication principles tell us that the very limits of being able to form a protective oil wedge are in proximity. We also know that small debris particles that normally do not cause scoring damage will now be unable to fit through the bearing clearance and thus will cause damage and embedment. We also know that we will be placing more demands on the anti-wear additives in the oil in the valvetrain where the camshaft lobes are already not getting a thick enough oil to allow for hydrodynamic full film lubrication in the first place. All in all, for most drivers, they will be fine till way past the warranty but will suffer more wear than they would with the proper or original design viscosities we already specified. However, wear is negligible with the regular viscosities so we still expect a relatively long life even when these rates go up. However, in very hot climates with longer duration trips and more aggressive driving styles, lifes will be cut by a much more significant margin. Those who make short trips only regardless of climate will simply enjoy excellent protection and improved mileage. As the owner's of Redline oil corporation said, we automotive lubricant engineers actually do run 5W-40, 10W-40, or 0W-40 lubricants in the summer if we make longer trips regardless of what we specifiy for the public. This should tell you something."
427Z06, did you hear me say that 5W-30 would not work great?..........I don't recall saying that. That's waht I used to run in my civic until it was totalled. With those facts in mind.....could you please answer one question:quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Well, Honda has been recommending dino 5w30 in their cars from about 1986-88.
I wonder how all these Hondas accumulated these miles on dino 5w30? Or did they all totally ignore the owner's manual and start using MOBIL SUPER S 10W-40 because they had a long lost relative phone them from down under to clue them in?
You're a smart man, so I would expect you to figure it out. The clues are all there.quote:
Originally posted by 1911:
427Z06, did you hear me say that 5W-30 would not work great?..........I don't recall saying that. That's waht I used to run in my civic until it was totalled. With those facts in mind.....could you please answer one question:quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Well, Honda has been recommending dino 5w30 in their cars from about 1986-88.
I wonder how all these Hondas accumulated these miles on dino 5w30? Or did they all totally ignore the owner's manual and start using MOBIL SUPER S 10W-40 because they had a long lost relative phone them from down under to clue them in?
What is your point?
Here is the hard evidence. This is a PDF file.quote:
Originally posted by Ugly3:
In other words you have no direct or indirect knowledge of why Honda in recommending 5w20 motor oil, just guesses.
Did you read the letter? The letter says Ford and then Honda came to the EPA recommending the use of 5w20 oil. The EPA did not go the Ford and Honda and demand they use 5w20.quote:
Originally posted by jtantare:
Here is the hard evidence. This is a PDF file.quote:
Originally posted by Ugly3:
In other words you have no direct or indirect knowledge of why Honda in recommending 5w20 motor oil, just guesses.
Letter from the EPA about use of 5w20
I know this has been posted before but it needs repeating in order to clear things up. To summarize, 5w20 has absolutely nothing to do with engine design and everything to do with fuel economy test cycle run by the EPA.
So what? If the EPA had initiated this all manufacturers would have to use 5w20. They wouldn't single out 2 car makers. Honda and Ford wanted to improve the fuel economy numbers on the window sticker by using 5w20. EPA laid out the guide lines of how they would have to go about it. So Honda and Ford are mandated by the EPA to tell you to only use this oil grade since they used this oil in the fuel economy test.
I know exactly why they are recommending it for US vehicles. It leads to improved fuel economy and that's especially so for those who make primarily short trips where the oil is so thick in general and where the viscosity difference between the thinner and thicker oils in centistokes is the greatest.quote:
Originally posted by Ugly3:
1911 - I already answered that question for you Ugly. If 5w-20 was the design lube for the original engine, it would have been specified for the original engine. It would also be specified for the same engines overseas. With said facts in mind, anybody with a brain and a little knowledge of CAFE can deduce that somebody came to the engineers and said, "Hey Ford is doing this light oil thing...., can we do that too to improve mileage without having our engines fail under warranty"?
In other words you have no direct or indirect knowledge of why Honda in recommending 5w20 motor oil, just guesses.
1911, Your post would scare me enough to run 20w50 in my civic if it wasn't for the fact that I haven't seen any of that wear in any uoa. Of course some say uoa's don't tell you a thing so ...
Well written Ugly3 and some good information was presented by you here for sure. I don't think anybody here believes that engineering considerations were neglected when a decision was made to go to 5W-20. We would already have had a lot of failures if 5W-20 was a ridiculous and negligent choice.
