Lubrizol VII Modifiers Question

[SubieRubyRoo]

It's not being uncomfortable with the answers..no answer to the actual question was ever offered. Other than "it's proprietary". Which is not an answer at all.

I would think the reason for wanting to know the additive brands is evident: curiosity. Wanting to know more about the lubes we are using. If OP has read that their VIIs are a little better, why not try to seek out information on which oil is using it?

If we all just wanted to read the owner manual and use a spec oil, there would be no need for any forum like this in the first place.

As was stated, there’s LSJr doing some videos and disclosing some information.

@High Performance Lubricants has multiple threads where they disclose a bunch of information without giving away their IP or minute formulations. Anything with the majors is going to be a guess, and a transient one at that, since oil companies are always doing research to come up with more effective and/or cheaper additives that will do the job.

Outside of the two formulators mentioned, anybody who tells you that they know exactly what the ingredients are, and tells you what they are is either lying or breaking an NDA. All you can go by is the counts on the VOA, which won’t tell you anything about what applications that oil is good for.

That’s what specifications and approvals are for. Nobody’s being rude; it’s simply never going to be public knowledge.

 

[MolaKule]

As was stated, there’s LSJr doing some videos and disclosing some information.

@High Performance Lubricants has multiple threads where they disclose a bunch of information without giving away their IP or minute formulations. Anything with the majors is going to be a guess, and a transient one at that, since oil companies are always doing research to come up with more effective and/or cheaper additives that will do the job.

Outside of the two formulators mentioned, anybody who tells you that they know exactly what the ingredients are, and tells you what they are is either lying or breaking an NDA. All you can go by is the counts on the VOA, which won’t tell you anything about what applications that oil is good for.

That’s what specifications and approvals are for. Nobody’s being rude; it’s simply never going to be public knowledge.

@lawrencerd And there is wealth of information on the Science and Technology of Oils and Lubricant Additives forum that goes back 20 years here:

BobIsTheOilGuy

BobIsTheOilGuy

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Foxtrot08]

It's not being uncomfortable with the answers..no answer to the actual question was ever offered. Other than "it's proprietary". Which is not an answer at all.

I would think the reason for wanting to know the additive brands is evident: curiosity. Wanting to know more about the lubes we are using. If OP has read that their VIIs are a little better, why not try to seek out information on which oil is using it?

If we all just wanted to read the owner manual and use a spec oil, there would be no need for any forum like this in the first place.

So the counter question is, to what conclusion are you trying to get at?

That Oil X that uses Y VII is better than Oil D that uses F VII?

Because that’s not how this works. That’s not where the majority of oil failures come from. Almost all oil related failures occur from contamination of the oil.

Not because someone used Lubrizol VII that shears slightly faster than Afton VII. Or because Oronite VII is better than everyone else’s. (These statements are completely sarcastic and made up, for the record.)

I’ll repeat myself for probably the 1000th time with this - the more you know about oil, the less important branding is.

As I’ve pointed out: I use redline. Why? It’s free for me. Also my anti shill notice, I’m a P66 distributor. Thus, why it’s free. Not because I “recommend” it or because it’s “better” than anything else. It’s free. Free oil is like free beer. It’s the best type.

If I knew what I know currently, and not in the industry, I would pick whatever major brand gave away the best gloves at the trade shows, or had the best booth babes. And use that brand. That’s more important to me than what VII they’re using. And that’s my value proposition.

Other more boutique brands like HPL, Amsoil, etc. have other value propositions that resonate more with other people. If they hit the value proposition for you, great. Everyone looks for something different.

 

[ChrisD46]

I’m personally not going to sweat 2%.

Neither would I but if I knew and drive a GDI vehicle it may sway my decision on oil choice over the life of the engine (oil with lower VII’s). It’s like going to a top Itailian a restaurant and asking if the beef in the lasagna was grass fed or locally sourced and the waiter replied “I’m not at liberty to discuss that” . *You didn’t ask for the lasagna recipe - you just had a meat question (lol !) … You can’t fight city hall - I’ll move on from my silly question .

 

[lawrencerd]

So the counter question is, to what conclusion are you trying to get at?

That Oil X that uses Y VII is better than Oil D that uses F VII?

Because that’s not how this works. That’s not where the majority of oil failures come from. Almost all oil related failures occur from contamination of the oil.

Not because someone used Lubrizol VII that shears slightly faster than Afton VII. Or because Oronite VII is better than everyone else’s. (These statements are completely sarcastic and made up, for the record.)

I’ll repeat myself for probably the 1000th time with this - the more you know about oil, the less important branding is.

As I’ve pointed out: I use redline. Why? It’s free for me. Also my anti shill notice, I’m a P66 distributor. Thus, why it’s free.

If I knew what I know currently, and not in the industry, I would pick whatever major brand gave away the best gloves at the trade shows, or had the best booth babes. And use that brand. That’s more important to me than what VII they’re using.

That's the issue with this board imo, too many counter questions. Too many "You can't use a UOA like that". Etc, Etc, Etc.

What if the asker is simply curious who is using Lubrizol VIIs? Why is the immediate reaction to basically discredit the question or prove why it is not relevant, rather than offering an answer as asked? Or if you are unable, just leave it alone.

I doubt anyone thinks that the brand of VII is going to make or break their engine's service life.. I certainly don't. Myself I mainly cruise the product rebate sales and promotions to find my next oil, but it doesn't stop me being curious.

I guess due to the nature of NDAs and whatever the industry is doing to keep people quiet, this is the best we can do. But, it is frustrating that this is the best oil forum going, and still unable to provide answers. Only endless counter-questions..

 

[Foxtrot08]

Neither would I but if I knew and drive a GDI vehicle it may sway my decision on oil choice over the life of the engine (oil with lower VII’s). It’s like going to a top Itailian a restaurant and asking if the beef in the lasagna was grass fed or locally sourced and the waiter replied “I’m not at liberty to discuss that” . *You didn’t ask for the lasagna recipe - you just had a meat question (lol !) … You can’t fight city hall - I’ll move on from my silly question .

It’s not like your example at all.


I get it, you’re searching for an answer without know what the actual question is. Well, the answer is 42. And always carry a towel.


To put it in a better perspective, in terms of your example. It would be like asking “I want to know what cut of beef this ground came from, how it was handled, what farm this cow came from, and how much are you using of it. Also, how much did you pay for it?”

Using Y polymer might immediately make the case that blender is using X base oil. And Z other additives because of the licensing. Then you can see what they’re charging for it. And know if they’re getting a better deal than you or not, on the blending side.

This leads to collusion and price fixing. That’s why it’s a problem.


So it would be like one Italian restaurant owner walking into another one, demanding to see where his ingredients are from, how they were sourced and what he pays for it. So they can match prices from their suppliers.

 

[ChrisD46]

It’s not like your example at all.


I get it, you’re searching for an answer without know what the actual question is. Well, the answer is 42. And always carry a towel.


To put it in a better perspective, in terms of your example. It would be like asking “I want to know what cut of beef this ground came from, how it was handled, what farm this cow came from, and how much are you using of it. Also, how much did you pay for it?”

Using Y polymer might immediately make the case that blender is using X base oil. And Z other additives because of the licensing. Then you can see what they’re charging for it. And know if they’re getting a better deal than you or not, on the blending side.

This leads to collusion and price fixing. That’s why it’s a problem.


So it would be like one Italian restaurant owner walking into another one, demanding to see where his ingredients are from, how they were sourced and what he pays for it. So they can match prices from their suppliers.

I stand to be corrected - my question (more of a curiousity really) has been answered in full .

 

[Foxtrot08]

That's the issue with this board imo, too many counter questions. Too many "You can't use a UOA like that". Etc, Etc, Etc.

What if the asker is simply curious who is using Lubrizol VIIs? Why is the immediate reaction to basically discredit the question or prove why it is not relevant, rather than offering an answer as asked? Or if you are unable, just leave it alone.

I doubt anyone thinks that the brand of VII is going to make or break their engine's service life.. I certainly don't. Myself I mainly cruise the product rebate sales and promotions to find my next oil, but it doesn't stop me being curious.

I guess due to the nature of NDAs and whatever the industry is doing to keep people quiet, this is the best we can do. But, it is frustrating that this is the best oil forum going, and still unable to provide answers. Only endless counter-questions..

Because it’s not a proper question. As I described above. The only people who want to know what, exactly, the formulation is, are not asking the right questions.

Using Paratone vs Asteric doesn’t mean anything unless you’re a blender. To the common person, it literally doesn’t mean anything. They’re part of the overall formulation. Which means there’s other things that play into that formulation that, makes it complete.


You may be able to get away with a cheaper polymer because you’re using more PAO and esters. You might be using heavier base oils. There’s a lot of reasons to change polymers around.

So asking the right question is more important than simply asking brand.

 

[userfriendly]

The shear rate of the polymer must match the evaporative losses of the oil so it doesn’t thicken or thin out of grade over the drain interval.
That’s all I care about.

 

[MolaKule]

I stand to be corrected - my question (more of a curiousity really) has been answered in full .

It's great to be curious and that is what drives innovation. Thanks for your question.

Unfortunately, your type of question cannot be answered with any certainty and conjecture about who uses what component; it is just that, conjecture.