LSJr Take on Oil Filter Efficiency Improving with Loading

[mojoe]

I never said I doubted you.

In fact I agreed with you. In post 92 I said that you want to give LSJr the benefit of the doubt that he will come up with some evidence.

In post 93:


I think this was sarcasm, so I (sarcastically) replied in post 96:



So, to end this I will say no, I do not doubt that there is no evidence to show that LSJr has no evidence. As I said, it's theater on his part to get you to stay tuned & watch another video.

But it is unlikely that he can disprove an ISO test, unless flow rates are brought into the picture as illustrated in this post by @Hohn in the thread https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/the-myth-of-flow-over-efficiency.398959/page-3 :


Replied by @ZeeOSix :

Thank you for a thoughtful clarification, and straightening out MY confusion. I agree with everything you said.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I don't think he can disprove ISO 4548-12, but he might come up with some "twist" on it. He might point out that toward the end of the hockey stick efficiency does in fact get better, but that's pretty much end of life for that filter.

He can't disprove that oil filters get less efficient in the ISO test, and as said there's no reason why oil filters as they load with debris in "real world" use would behave the same. He should do an in field test like I suggested to prove it to himself. If he tries to twist it that they get more efficient right before they totally clog then he's back peddling on the subject matter, and nobody with any common sense would run an oil filter up to the point where it got "more efficient" when it was getting less efficient for 98% of the time before totally clogging at end of life.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I understand why people doubt him; aside from the graphs and charts in his video, he has not shown any data to support his claims, and I realize those graphs and charts are not evidence of a controlled study, and may not represent conclusive evidence. I have never claimed that they do. I also realize the mountain of evidence that would seem to contradict his claim.

What graphs and charts are you referring to?

 

[ZeeOSix]

But it is unlikely that he can disprove an ISO test, unless flow rates are brought into the picture as illustrated in this post by @Hohn in the thread https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/the-myth-of-flow-over-efficiency.398959/page-3 :

My take on the flow rate factor is after some level of oil flow, combined with debris loading, the oil filter is going to start shedding debris depending on the media of course. So after that point the more flow you put through the filter, the more it's going to shed.

Like I've said a few times, if the flow through the media and the resulting dP was super low, like seen in air filters, then an oil filter would probably get more efficient with loading. But once past a certain flow rate, which would still be pretty low compared to what oil filters see in real use, the media is going to start shedding debris. The more loaded the filter is, and the higher the flow rate will increase the debris shedding rate. This can also be seen when loaded oil filters are hit with a flow surge which causes a dP surge. It can be seen is the thread below that shows real time efficiency data being taken as flow rate is changed. Watch the 1st video in the link below. It compared fiberglass type media to a metal mesh filter, and the fiberglass media sheds debris with flow changes and the lose of efficiency because of debris shedding out of the filter.

Post in thread 'Metal Fiber Filter Medium'

Oct 2, 2024

The efficiency is the same as with glass fiber media. Check out this video on Youtube from my previous company
It shows a glass fiber element breaking down during dynamic testing. Then a metal fiber element is tested. You can see that it does not break down. This is why the Army helicopter hydraulic systems cleaned up so quickly and stayed clean. The Army saves over $50M per year now in things they don't have to fix. Also check out this video:

we found that upon shutting down a hydraulic system or car, the filter element unloads most of its...

• ZeeOSix

• 

 

[mojoe]

He can't disprove that oil filters get less efficient in the ISO test, and as said there's no reason why oil filters as they load with debris in "real world" use would behave the same. He should do an in field test like I suggested to prove it to himself. If he tries to twist it that they get more efficient right before they totally clog then he's back peddling on the subject matter, and nobody with any common sense would run an oil filter up to the point where it got "more efficient" when it was getting less efficient for 98% of the time before totally clogging at end of life.

Since we are speculating about what he may or may not do, I don't think he will try to disprove anything from the ISO test. He doesn't have to for his point to be valid, which is that oil filtration works differently in the real world.

If he tries to twist it that they get more efficient right before they totally clog

I don't think he will claim that; I think he's way too smart for that. I am fairly confident that if he does provide any further response, and I have a feeling he will, you will disagree with it and do your best to tear it apart.

Again, just speculation on my part, and I could be very wrong.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Since we are speculating about what he may or may not do, I don't think he will try to disprove anything from the ISO test. He doesn't have to for his point to be valid, which is that oil filtration works differently in the real world.

If he tries to twist it that they get more efficient right before they totally clog

I don't think he will claim that; I think he's way too smart for that. I am fairly confident that if he does provide any further response, and I have a feeling he will, you will disagree with it and do your best to tear it apart.

Again, just speculation on my part, and I could be very wrong.

If he claims that oil filters work totally opposite of how they act in the ISO test, then he better have some rock solid real in field use testing proof. He just can't make a statement like that without proving it somehow. I only tear apart claims that have no real proof and I have some proof that shows otherwise. Will you agree with him if he doesn't have solid proof, or will you scrutinize it too.

 

[mojoe]

What graphs and charts are you referring to?

Sorry, I can't keep track of which thread I'm in. I was thinking about his vid on 20W vs 30W.

 

[mojoe]

If he claims that oil filters work totally opposite of how they act in the ISO test, then he better have some rock solid real in field use testing proof. He just can't make a statement like that without proving it somehow. I only tear apart claims that have no real proof. Will you agree with him if he doesn't have solid proof, or will you scrutinize it too.

I have said repeatedly that I want to see his evidence. I have never suggested otherwise.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I have said repeatedly that I want to see his evidence. I have never suggested otherwise.

Then we wait, and scrutinize what he comes up with to support his claim that oil filters also get more efficient with use. If he twists it that they work opposite from what's seen in ISO 4548-12, then he needs solid proof with data from a controlled in field use test.

 

[mojoe]

Then we wait, and scrutinize what he comes up with to support his claim that oil filters also get more efficient with use. If he twists it that they work opposite from what's seen in ISO 4548-12, then he needs solid proof with data from a controlled in field use test.

I have no way to know what kind of data he has, if any. I just find it hard to believe that someone like him, who bills himself as The Motor Oil Geek and has a stake in maintaining integrity and respectability that goes far beyond getting clicks on YouTube, would make such a claim based on zero evidence. It may not meet your standards, or mine, but my gut tells me he's not basing it on the air filter theory alone. I think he's smarter than that. Especially after spending time at Donaldson; I can't believe that the Motor Oil Geek didn't discuss oil filtration with them.

LIke you say, we wait.

 

[ZeeOSix]

He spent time at Donaldson talking about air filters and such, not oil filter. That's why he asked in the video to his viewers if they'd like to see him go to Donaldson and find out about oil filters. I'm sure Donaldson has the capability of running official ISO 4548-12 tests, and bet they also see oil filters losing efficiency as they load with debris. He's the "Motor Oil Geek", but might not be so much of an "Oil Filter Geek" or he would have also brought it up with Donaldson when he was there. He rarely talks about oil filters in any kind of detail. We will wait and see.

 

[Hohn]

I suspect he might be inappropriately extrapolating from air filter to oil filters, which is a source of common error. Air filters tend to get more efficient as they load, but oil filters tend to get less efficient. This is the because air filters achieve “cake” surface filtration while oil filters cannot achieve that because they are depth filters.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I suspect he might be inappropriately extrapolating from air filter to oil filters, which is a source of common error. Air filters tend to get more efficient as they load, but oil filters tend to get less efficient. This is the because air filters achieve “cake” surface filtration while oil filters cannot achieve that because they are depth filters.

To add ... the dP across air filters is around 20-25 in-H20 when pretty loaded up with debris. If you kept the dP across an oil filter at that super low level it might get more efficient with loading too. But oil filters can be 10-15+ PSI of dP in use. 15 PSI is 415.6 in-H2O.

 

[Hohn]

To add ... the dP across air filters is around 20-25 in-H20 when pretty loaded up with debris. If you kept the dP across an oil filter at that super low level it might get more efficient with loading too. But oil filters can be 10-15+ PSI of dP in use.

Exactly. A “plugged” air filter is less restrictive than most NEW oil filters.

 

[mojoe]

I suspect he might be inappropriately extrapolating from air filter to oil filters, which is a source of common error. Air filters tend to get more efficient as they load, but oil filters tend to get less efficient. This is the because air filters achieve “cake” surface filtration while oil filters cannot achieve that because they are depth filters.

For the record, I am very well aware of that as it has been discussed here more than once. While it's possible that LSJR is basing his conclusion on such a basic error, I just think he's smarter than that.

 

[ZeeOSix]

For the record, I am very well aware of that as it has been discussed here more than once. While it's possible that LSJR is basing his conclusion on such a basic error, I just think he's smarter than that.

Sometimes misconceptions are deep and hard to break, and nobody is immune to them.

 

[oil pan 4]

I'd say it's based on a theory stemming from air filters get more efficient with debris loading.

It's been proven by testing that oil filters lose efficiency with debris loading. Data sources shown in this thread. Filters with a lower ISO efficiency are larger debris shedders than higher efficiency filters.

Rock shedders?
I like it.

 

[garageman402]

I suspect he might be inappropriately extrapolating from air filter to oil filters, which is a source of common error. Air filters tend to get more efficient as they load, but oil filters tend to get less efficient. This is the because air filters achieve “cake” surface filtration while oil filters cannot achieve that because they are depth filters.

He specifically said "dust cake" in his reference to air, oil, & fuel filters. The comment I posted in post #1 is a direct quote, I copied & pasted his reply on the video. Please scroll back to my opening post to review it, thanks!

 

[garageman402]

Sometimes misconceptions are deep and hard to break, and nobody is immune to them.

Galileo was imprisoned for saying the Earth was not the center of the universe......

 

[garageman402]

Exactly. A “plugged” air filter is less restrictive than most NEW oil filters.

Well, a "plugged" air filter is less restrictive to air then a new oil filter is to oil. If you tried to run oil through a plugged air filter would it slough off debris?