Lost another one: HEMI #3

[Timmastertech]

So I guess I could have googled, but the roller is in the lifter, and it appears replacing lifters is a heads off affair, so a pre-emptive replacement is a ton of work as well. Not a great design, or at least not a design conducive to repair unfortunately.

Usual failure mode on a cam and lifter failure is the roller on the lifter fails and wipes the lobe off of the cam. Chrysler has a service bulletin instructing inspection to determine if cam and lifter replacement is viable or if the engine needs replaced. Basically you pull the intake manifold, remove the VVT solenoid and MDS solenoids and look for metal on the screens, If there is metal on the screens the engine gets replaced. Before I go that far I usually take an oil sample and look for glitter. If theres glitter in the oil there isnt much point in checking the screens.

A few months ago I did an engine in a Ram of this vintage, misfire on cylinder 5, failed the exhaust cam lobe and lifter. Oil looked like silver metal flake paint so no point in yanking the intake. Between a Chrysler reman engine, all the bits required to be replaced for warranty plus some stuff that was pointless to reuse on a 250k truck while it was already removed (radiator and hoses, exhaust manifold, some engine management parts, etc) We were right about 13k out the door. Guy couldnt replace it for that and took all of 30 seconds to approve the job.

 

[OVERKILL]

Once the needle bearings have departed the lifters, those little metal pieces floating around wreak havoc on everything. No telling what’s been damaged, or where some of those pieces ended up.

The only way to be sure is to rip the entire thing apart and start from scratch… with labor rates these days, the dealer techs is not who you want building your new engine anyways…

So is replacing lifters just not cost effective - or am I missing something?

@SubieRubyRoo covered it. The amount of disassembly required to clean out an engine that's coming up on 200,000 miles anyway... You'd be thousands in labour and still risk maybe not getting it all or there being damage from the metal circulating that could take it out 10,000 miles later.

If it was a shadetree project? Sure, why the heck not, slap a cam and lifters in it, but when you are paying dealer labour rates? Best to just get a new long block.

 

[OVERKILL]

@OVERKILL , do these trucks get idled a lot?

Not really. The first Laramie probably got idled a bit more than the other two, but that hasn't seemed to have any impact. The problem of course is the metallurgy of the lifters: improper heat treatment of the pin or roller that eventually fails, causing localized erosion and eventually the needles fetch up in the "ditch" this creates, then they pile-up, the roller stops rolling and the seized roller promptly destroys itself and the lobe it is riding on.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Not that I am aware of, but I'm not involved in the maintenance at all. I'm not sure the guys driving them check it TBH. Oil is changed frequently, I think like 5,000km intervals? But the first one, the 2011 Laramie, did have its valve cover removed and it was varnish city, which was surprising, given the short interval.

That is surprising using a decent/respected oil like what goes under the Napa banner. Short interval use or highway miles. I would suspect highway with the reported miles when they fail.

 

[OVERKILL]

It sounds like heavy duty fleet use. Have you considered going to diesel? They did offer the ram 1500 with the ecodiesel

What was the upcharge to go to Ecodiesel, and would that saved money pay for the possible Hemi swap, if it went? seems to me the Eco's were worse on the reliability front on top of the initial purchase--not sure the fuel savings works out.

Not really heavy duty, they are used for commuting a lot, they are company provided personal vehicles. We do have a single EcoDiesel in the fleet now, will be interesting to see how it fares compared to the HEMI's.

 

[OVERKILL]

Talk about brand loyalty. "Thank you, Sir! May I have another?"

View attachment 219053

Eh, I mean the GM trucks do the same thing, so The issue, at least with the HEMI (not GM) was supposedly fixed with updated lifters, so the newer trucks we have now shouldn't have the same issue, touch wood.

The RAM's have been surprisingly cheap to own from a durability perspective, other than the high mileage lifter failure. The Ford has been much hungrier, but it's also a sample size of one, so have to keep that in mind (we used to have two, but the 2nd was traded in on a newer RAM).

 

[OVERKILL]

I always have the fear in the back of my head of this happening to my 2016 Ram Limited. It's been the best truck I ever had and at 127k miles not a single issue even the air suspension works as new. It has had a diet of full syn 5w/30 (Mobil 1 or QSUD) do you think I might have a better chance of avoiding this vs the ones such as yours that were run on 5w/20 conventional oils? In any event with GM having the lifter failures even on new 2023's still ...I am happy to have the Ram.

I don't think there's any avoiding it. If you've got a lifter with the poopy metallurgy, it's eventually going to pack it in. On the other hand, if you don't, you are golden.

 

[OVERKILL]

That is surprising using a decent/respected oil like what goes under the Napa banner. Short interval use or highway miles. I would suspect highway with the reported miles when they fail.

Definitely mixed use with a lot of long highway use for periods. The HEMI is a very dirty running engine, so I'm not as surprised as I would otherwise normally be, but still a bit surprised, given how short the intervals were.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Definitely mixed use with a lot of long highway use for periods. The HEMI is a very dirty running engine, so I'm not really surprised.

What is the cause of the "dirty running engines?"

 

[OVERKILL]

What is the cause of the "dirty running engines?"

"HEMI", Looooooool.

Seriously though, that's why they have dual ignition. Even though the chamber isn't totally hemispherical (that would be even worse), they have terrible low speed manners, because you don't get the high swirl effect you do at high engine speeds. This means craptacular combustion characteristics and horrible emissions. Igniting the mixture twice, in a phased approach to effectively create two flame fronts to improve the combustion characteristics has been a long standing practice here, but it's just an improvement over awful, it doesn't make it behave like a pent-roof or wedge.

 

[daves87rs]

Sounds like a change is needed….

 

[BrendanC]

the fords in our fleet are also more labor/part hungry. we only had 1 GM engine failure since 2008 and all trucks go north of 200k prior to replacement.

 

[jeepman3071]

Eh, I mean the GM trucks do the same thing, so The issue, at least with the HEMI (not GM) was supposedly fixed with updated lifters, so the newer trucks we have now shouldn't have the same issue, touch wood.

The RAM's have been surprisingly cheap to own from a durability perspective, other than the high mileage lifter failure. The Ford has been much hungrier, but it's also a sample size of one, so have to keep that in mind (we used to have two, but the 2nd was traded in on a newer RAM).

Yeah it pretty much comes down to pick your poison with today's trucks. They all have weak spots that can cost a ton.

My dad's 2013 GC 5.7L ate a lifter a few miles short of 200k (199,9xx) but was otherwise trouble-free, considering he was in 3 wrecks with it (2 his fault) towed every other weekend, and generally abused it. If I didn't do the maintenance on it, it would've seen oil changes when he remembered. He insisted I do the oil changes by the OLM which went 10,000 miles between changes, and I used 0w40 for most of its life. He went out and bought a 2020 Grand Cherokee 5.7L, since he liked the other one so much, and now I do changes every 5000 miles.

 

[racer12306]

2019 Classic's have the updated lifters right?

 

[OVERKILL]

2019 Classic's have the updated lifters right?

Yes.

 

[jeepman3071]

Do these trucks idle a lot? I know there have been theories about excessive idling not helping the lifter issue.

 

[Skippy722]

"HEMI", Looooooool.

Seriously though, that's why they have dual ignition. Even though the chamber isn't totally hemispherical (that would be even worse), they have terrible low speed manners, because you don't get the high swirl effect you do at high engine speeds. This means craptacular combustion characteristics and horrible emissions. Igniting the mixture twice, in a phased approach to effectively create two flame fronts to improve the combustion characteristics has been a long standing practice here, but it's just an improvement over awful, it doesn't make it behave like a pent-roof or wedge.

I’ve always been adamant that the 5.7 doesn’t “wake up” till about 2,500-3,000rpm. Love that 2nd kick as the cam and intake runners kick over though!

 

[OVERKILL]

Do these trucks idle a lot? I know there have been theories about excessive idling not helping the lifter issue.

No.

The reason idling gets blamed is because it adds to engine hours without adding to miles and the poor heat treatment of the lifters doesn't care if you are sitting still or going down the highway, it's only going to last so long. So, on an engine that idles a ton, it is going to have fewer miles when the lifter packs it in when compared to one that spends its entire life cruising down the highway but ultimately accruing a similar number of hours.

 

[jeepman3071]

No.

The reason idling gets blamed is because it adds to engine hours without adding to miles and the poor heat treatment of the lifters doesn't care if you are sitting still or going down the highway, it's only going to last so long. So, on an engine that idles a ton, it is going to have fewer miles when the lifter packs it in when compared to one that spends its entire life cruising down the highway but ultimately accruing a similar number of hours.

Makes sense.

I've been running 5w20 synthetic in the 2020 GC, but ran 0w40 in the 2013 5.7. We will see if it makes any difference, but I don't think it will.

 

[Danno]

It sounds like heavy duty fleet use. Have you considered going to diesel? They did offer the ram 1500 with the ecodiesel

Just no on the Ecodiesel. Its not offered any longer. Just a terrible engine for reliability and repair costs.
FWIW, I work at a Ram store.