Looking for opinions on new engine issue

[supton]

Can they do a borescope--heck, can you? I'd be checking for scoring of the walls. I don't know if the cylinder can be bored out, and I'm not sure it's worth doing that vs dropping in a used or reman instead.

I'm wondering if an engine swap is the cheapest repair, a teardown is half of the labor (removal).

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by SirTanon
Alright, new update. Got them to provide full compression numbers as well as a leakdown. Here is what they said:

Cyl 1 - 189
Cyl 2 - 160 (dry) - 182 (wet)
Cyl 3 - 195
Cyl 4 - 195

"Completed leak-down test, found leak coming through crankcase, as well as cylinder 4 and slightly cyl 3. Recommend Teardown"


Before you go throwing money at it or tearing into it. Those numbers while lower on #2 are not low enough to induce a misfire, 90 or below then you may have one.
I suspect some other issue is causing the mis but for the heck of it an inline engine is perfect for an overnight piston soak. GM, Chrysler, Subaru, Toyota all have a decent top engine cleaner you can pour a couple of ounces (2 or 3 oz) down each plug hole and let it sit.

You will need to change the oil after doing this. Try it, its cheap and do a compression test after.

Edit: You can get a leak down tester and compression gauge cheap enough (under $100 for both), a small compressor will work okay with the leak down tester.

 

[WyrTwister]

https://www.harborfreight.com/39-in-x-55mm-inspection-camera-cable-64125.html

No idea how good this is ? Might be worth a try , especially if you could find other uses for it ?

If you are having air leaking into the crank case , with the leak down test ? Those compression numbers do not sound that low ? Real puzzler ?

Were it mine , I would probably continue to drive it while I continued to study the problem .

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted by supton
Can they do a borescope--heck, can you? I'd be checking for scoring of the walls.

I actually ordered a borescope, which is supposed to arrive today, so I plan to have a look inside all 4 cylinders to assess the overall condition, and have a much more involved look inside cylinder 2.

Also, for what it's worth, when I had the valve work done on Cylinder 1 back in March 2017, I was able to take some photos of the cylinders and pistons while the head was off. This is a picture of Cylinder2. Please note that the dark lines inside the cylinder are just discoloration, as far as I can tell. I was able to run my fingernails inside #2 and #3, and they did not catch on anything.

As you can see, the cylinder was in pretty good shape roughly 60,000 miles ago.

Originally Posted by supton
I don't know if the cylinder can be bored out, and I'm not sure it's worth doing that vs dropping in a used or reman instead.
I'm wondering if an engine swap is the cheapest repair, a teardown is half of the labor (removal).

I'm not even considering doing a new engine at this point. They quoted me something like $6000 to do it, including the engine and labor. No freaking way. I might entertain going with a used engine, but even that's going to run a good $2000 or more.

Originally Posted by Trav
Before you go throwing money at it or tearing into it. Those numbers while lower on #2 are not low enough to induce a misfire, 90 or below then you may have one.

Good point. Granted, the fact that's it's roughly 20% low on just the 1 cylinder is certainly still a concern, at least it's not a big one.

Originally Posted by Trav
I suspect some other issue is causing the miss but for the heck of it an inline engine is perfect for an overnight piston soak. GM, Chrysler, Subaru, Toyota all have a decent top engine cleaner you can pour a couple of ounces (2 or 3 oz) down each plug hole and let it sit.

Cool, I'll look into those. Just on the off chance that I can't find one of them, what would be another over-the-counter cleaner that would be comparable?

Originally Posted by Trav
You will need to change the oil after doing this. Try it, its cheap and do a compression test after.

No worries - it's got over 6000 miles on the current oil/filter, so it's close to being due anyways.
Originally Posted by Trav
Edit: You can get a leak down tester and compression gauge cheap enough (under $100 for both), a small compressor will work okay with the leak down tester.

I'm pretty sure I already have a compression tester.. not sure about he leak-down tester.. but I'm sure HF has one of those for cheap enough.

 

[Donald]

I would focus on ignition and fuel.

What happened to cause the head to be pulled and worked on?

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted by Donald
I would focus on ignition and fuel.

What happened to cause the head to be pulled and worked on?

Bad exhaust valve on cylinder 1.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...on-on-cylinder-1-taking-bets#Post4346512

 

[Trav]

Look for a tight valve on #2, this engine apparently uses buckets of various thicknesses, it is more than possible when the head was done they didn't get them right.

Edit: The more I think about it I think they misdiagnosed the rings, I would check the valve clearances carefully, I would almost put money on it.

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted by Trav
Look for a tight valve on #2, this engine apparently uses buckets of various thicknesses, it is more than possible when the head was done they didn't get them right.

Edit: The more I think about it I think they misdiagnosed the rings, I would check the valve clearances carefully, I would almost put money on it.


If it was a valve issue, though.. then why did the leakdown test indicate that the air was going through the crankcase and not the intake or exhaust?

That said, I got my boroscope, and i was able to use it today to look. The piston heads and cylinders look pretty much exactly like they did in the picture I posted above. Valves looked fine too, as far as I could tell - no cracks or chips. Unfortunately, I had something come up yesterday, so i wasn't able to get over to the local Dodge/Chrysler dealership to pick up the can of Mopar Combustion Chamber cleaner to use with the piston/ring soak.. so I went with a bottle of B-12 for the moment. I also added a couple ounces of Gumout Multi-System Tune Up to see if some added PEA might help a little. I will leave that in for 12-24 hours and see how it does, and then try again with the Mopar stuff if it needs it.

l also did a resistance check of the injectors, and they all are pretty much even at 13.1 ohms... so I guess, at worst, injector 2 is clogged?

 

[clinebarger]

A true leakdown test will come with numbers (Leakdown Percentage) of all cylinders.

To prove out Trav's theory.......The Leakdown will need to be done with the engine at operating temperature. Though checking the valve clearances will work as well.
If they have a valve to tight, Especially one of the exhaust valves......It will leak with the engine at operating temperature.


The gauge on the left indicates the regulated pressure, The right indicates the leakdown in percentage. This cylinder has @ 22% leakdown.

 

[Trav]

I believe this engine uses an aluminum head in which case the valve clearance will increase not decrease like an iron head when at operating temp. Please correct me if this is incorrect, but it makes sense when he said..

Quote
When the engine is cool, especially when idling, I get the highest misfire percentage. Latest numbers are somewhere around 200-300 misfires in a 5-10 minute drive after the car has been sitting overnight or during a workday.


Edit: OP. A clogged injector would be less likely to cause a misfire during cold operation when they operate rich acting like a choke, it would more likely to go lean and miss at normal operating temp while low speed cruising or coasting when the injector ms are in a lower range. The test for this condition is ms rpm fail test

 

[SirTanon]

Well, the piston/ring soak is done, and appears to have worked very well, at least on the piston crown. The carbon that was bound to the top of the piston is now loose and comes off easy. I took a thin dowel, securely taped a small piece of paper towel around the tip and then put it down in the plug hole and swabbed it around lightly for a few seconds. These pictures are with my new boroscope, showing the patch that swabbing loosened up and removed. With any luck, it did a similar job on any carbon in the rings.

(.. edit.. I swabbed around just a little bit more, pulling the dowel out each time to remove the carbon that was sticking to the paper towel after each swab. Roughly 10 more seconds of light swabbing got me to this:

My only concern now is.. will running the car with the carbon this loose potentially cause new issues? I'm inclined to change the oil and take it out on the highway for a short romp to clean things out.. but.. just don't know how much of it will come off quickly..

Thoughts?

 

[Trav]

You are more concerned with cleaning the rings not so much removing the carbon of the crowns. No, you wont have any issues just give it a good run after you check the valve clearances. Please check them, your symptoms are that of a tight valve and you do not want to burn another one. Not saying that's 100% the issue but its absolutely worth looking at.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by Trav
I believe this engine uses an aluminum head in which case the valve clearance will increase not decrease like an iron head when at operating temp


Thanks for the correction Trav!!

 

[spasm3]

B-12 and techron in the fuel ! Then a long highway run, maybe even out of overdrive.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by Trav
I believe this engine uses an aluminum head in which case the valve clearance will increase not decrease like an iron head when at operating temp


Thanks for the correction Trav!!


It caught me too the first time I ran into it as I learned on iron head engines also.

 

[Nick1994]

Gear down on the highway, get it nice and hot and drive to Tonopah and back like a race car.

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted by Trav
You are more concerned with cleaning the rings not so much removing the carbon of the crowns. No, you wont have any issues just give it a good run after you check the valve clearances. Please check them, your symptoms are that of a tight valve and you do not want to burn another one. Not saying that's 100% the issue but its absolutely worth looking at.

Yeah I know it's the rings that need the cleaning. Just making the observation of the crowns, since there's no way to see the rings with the boroscope. Just commenting that the mix of B-12 and Gumout did a bang-up job on the carbon on the crown, so hopefully it did a similar job on the rings.

I don't have the time to take the valve cover off this weekend to check the clearances, unfortunately, so this will have to wait, unless you can tell me another way to check this without taking the cover off.

Also, the exhaust valve on cylinder 1 from 2 years ago wasn't burnt. It was apparently 'slightly bent' causing it to stick in the guide. I didn't actually get to see it myself, so I can't say how much.

 

[Trav]

The only time I ever ran into a real sticking valve was on a Z28 back when they had dual throttle bodies (GM called it Crossfire IIRC) it was brand new but got water down the hood scoop thing when it rained. GM eventually came out with a TSB and repair part.
Before tearing the heads off I tried GM top engine cleaner down the throttle bodies, shut it off and let it sit for a couple of hours, it freed the valve and cured the miss.

Get some top engine cleaner and run it through a vacuum line slowly then when the bottle is almost empty flood it till it almost dies then shut it off, leave it for a few hours and fire it up.
A leak down test on the stone cold engine will reveal a valve slightly open, the trick is to recognize where the leak down is, it will of course have some past the rings but a small leak through a valve in addition to that may require you to use a stethoscope to hear it. Just place it on each exhaust and intake manifold port and listen for air.

 

[SirTanon]

Well, another update.

A coworker recommended a family-owned and operated independent shop that he has been using for 10 years. I took the Fusion in for them to diagnose. They seem like pretty honest people.

Anyways, I discussed the issue with them, even brought up what you had said, Trav, about the potential tight valve. One of the mechanics in on the discussion mentioned that over times, the valves on these engines can indeed slowly wear deeper into the seat, leading to tighter clearances, but when we discussed addressing that, he pointed out that since the top end utilizes hydraulic... 'lifters' for lack of a better term (my term, I don't remember verbatim all the verbiage used), doing any kind of work to adjust them will require substantial labor and involve removal of the heads, etc.. just to potentially address a valve issue.

Aside from that, they did the following tests:
- Compression of all 4 cylinders, including what they called a "running" compression test vs. a cranking one. They found Cyl 2 to be roughly 20% low, with a substantial amount of blowby through the oil fill hole while the engine is running. Even if there is a valve issue, we're still apparently getting a bunch of pressure loss down the cylinder.
- They tested the injectors, including even swapping one from one of the other cylinders to 2. They tested the plugs and coils, including swapping cylinders.

Their recommendation, just like the dealership, was replacing the engine. $6-8k for a new Ford engine, $3500 for a used engine. .. including installation.

I discussed the possibility of a rebuild, and they said the labor alone would make it roughly as expensive as the used engine.

.. It seems like finding a shop these days who wants to do the old-school repair work - rings, valves, bearings, etc.. - is getting nearly impossible. I'm picking the car up today.

What gets me is.. the car burns no oil, and all of the UOA's I've done (up through the one I did in August 2018) show no fuel dilution. How can there be that much pressure loss in the cylinder without either oil burning or fuel dilution? I suppose maybe, if whatever has caused the problem is just very recent, then it would only show up on a newer UOA.. but still, no oil burning is happening.

Trav - you mentioned previously: "The more I think about it I think they misdiagnosed the rings, I would check the valve clearances carefully, I would almost put money on it."
--- If this is indeed the case, with the hydraulic "lifter" in use, what would you suggest? it's not like I can manually adjust the valve lash without fully removing the head, cam removal, etc..


Finally - Assuming cylinder/ring wear or damage is indeed the case, this almost seems like an Ideal use case for Restore. What do you all think?

 

[Nick1994]

...At this point I'd drive it til it stops, then sell the car for dirt cheap and start fresh with a replacement car and call it a good run.