Liquimoly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W40

[scrllock]

I checked and the recommended oil, vw 508 0w20 is low calcium and this new standard was created due to research into lapi

The mk7 gti used a high calcium oil but was probably offset by it's required use of 91 aki octane.

Since the failure rate is affected by other conditions what if high failure, say 100k plus miles, is localized to specific cars?

I'm just confused because if it's rare why did multiple manufacturers respond with standard changes so rapidly? (Independent research seems to start around 2012 to 2016 and VW changed by 2019)
Maybe just cautious?

Many small parts of engine design contribute. EA888.4 uses extremely high pressure DI, leading to better atomization, which helps prevent the oil mixing that leads to LSPI events. It also has relatively strong ringlands (compared to other small TGDI motors with these problems). It has oil squirters on the pistons, which help reduce crown temps. Stock tunes are set up well to detect better or worse octane by a few points, and should not give the engine all of the boost while lugging it. Also, the Mk7 GTI was intended for 87 in the US as well. Certainly more that are less obvious.

The only times I've maybe heard of something that could have been LSPI on an EA888.3/4 was a tuned car, where anything is possible.



As far as oil goes, pre-508/504, VW 502 oils weren't really limited on phosphorous (and still aren't generally). Castrol 5w30, Mobil 1 Full Synthetic, etc. help quench LSPI with higher ZDDP. When VW moved to OPF and ultra-thin oils, this coincided with the new mid-saps specs right before the new engine generation, but I doubt LSPI was the primary motivation (compared to emissions, particulate filter longevity, etc.)

 

[kloogmeister]

I was wrong about the mk7 fuel requirements for a long time, you're right. I thought it required 91 but apparently it can use 87 with a reduction in power (reduced timing due to knock?)

From their press release:
"Regular unleaded (Stated hp and torque figures achieved with premium unleaded)"

https://media.vw.com/assets/documents/original/6416-116801676557d8494f0ae0f.pdf

The MK8 doesn't mention premium at all and the octane sticker on the car says 87
https://media.vw.com/assets/documents/original/17302-2024GolfGTITechnicalSpecsFINAL.pdf

"Fuel Requirement Regular unleaded recommended"

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Another reason I was suspicious, besides VW creating a new spec might also be wrong so please correct me.

VW uses forged connecting rods but not a forged crankshaft. If you wanted to strengthen the engine for torque both should be upgraded but if you wanted to strengthen for LSPI then only the connecting rod needs it as the force barely impacts the crankshaft. Instead the rings, piston, and rod take it.

Maybe I'm looking too deeply into this. Some companies do talk about this major change.
https://investors.valvoline.com/new...nition-Protection-Across-Motor-Oil-Portfolio/

"..is introducing protection against an issue in newer engines called Low-Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI) across its line of North American motor oils"

 

[kloogmeister]

Many small parts of engine design contribute. EA888.4 uses extremely high pressure DI, leading to better atomization, which helps prevent the oil mixing that leads to LSPI events. It also has relatively strong ringlands (compared to other small TGDI motors with these problems). It has oil squirters on the pistons, which help reduce crown temps. Stock tunes are set up well to detect better or worse octane by a few points, and should not give the engine all of the boost while lugging it. Also, the Mk7 GTI was intended for 87 in the US as well. Certainly more that are less obvious.

The only times I've maybe heard of something that could have been LSPI on an EA888.3/4 was a tuned car, where anything is possible.



As far as oil goes, pre-508/504, VW 502 oils weren't really limited on phosphorous (and still aren't generally). Castrol 5w30, Mobil 1 Full Synthetic, etc. help quench LSPI with higher ZDDP. When VW moved to OPF and ultra-thin oils, this coincided with the new mid-saps specs right before the new engine generation, but I doubt LSPI was the primary motivation (compared to emissions, particulate filter longevity, etc.)

So the mk7 uses 5w40 and the mk8 R uses a 0w30.

My warranty ends soon. Do you think moving the VW 504 0w30 is a good idea? I don't care about the fuel economy drop. What confuses me is the 40 weight on the mk7. I've never owned a car that was above 30. Even my 80s American cars were 5w-30 or 10w-30

I feel that if VW picked 5w-40 they must have been concerned about high temp protection

 

[scrllock]

VW uses forged connecting rods but not a forged crankshaft. If you wanted to strengthen the engine for torque both should be upgraded but if you wanted to strengthen for LSPI then only the connecting rod needs it as the force barely impacts the crankshaft. Instead the rings, piston, and rod take it.

Maybe I'm looking too deeply into this. Some companies do talk about this major change.
https://investors.valvoline.com/new...nition-Protection-Across-Motor-Oil-Portfolio/

"..is introducing protection against an issue in newer engines called Low-Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI) across its line of North American motor oils"

The crank is forged on the GTI and R. Cast crank on the 1.8 and slightly narrower journals + longer rods. On the gen3, I believe 2.0 rods are all drop-forged, pistons are cast. I have not had my hands on the gen4 parts and the SSP doesn't mention a change. The service manuals and self-study programs are much more informative than press-release docs in terms of things like oil/fuel requirements, engine design changes, etc.

As far as strengthening for LSPI, you can see aftermarket pistons have a taller skirt, adjust ring spacing slightly. Lots of extra reinforcement in the thicker skirts as well. But that's to handle higher cylinder pressure in general. It simply is not an issue unless poorly tuned, and a poor tune can kill a built engine eventually, just with an even higher repair bill.

So the mk7 uses 5w40 and the mk8 R uses a 0w30.

My warranty ends soon. Do you think moving the VW 504 0w30 is a good idea? I don't care about the fuel economy drop. What confuses me is the 40 weight on the mk7. I've never owned a car that was above 30. Even my 80s American cars were 5w-30 or 10w-30

I feel that if VW picked 5w-40 they must have been concerned about high temp protection

The Mk7 uses 502 (0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 5w40) and the 2019+ R uses 504 (0w30 or 5w30).

Maybe high temp protection, maybe dilution concerns. As others will repeat, it is the spec and hths that matters, not grade. The main difference in the spec is mid-saps vs full-saps, which is entirely related to gas quality (sulfur content) and GPF. Same minimum HTHS.

As said before, if you want to keep the same/similar additive package as the 504 oil in a 40 grade, just run ESP X4. I don't think it's necessary unless the engine is modified/tuned though.

 

[kloogmeister]

The Mk7 uses 502 (0w30, 5w30, 0w40, 5w40) and the 2019+ R uses 504 (0w30 or 5w30).

Maybe high temp protection, maybe dilution concerns. As others will repeat, it is the spec and hths that matters, not grade. The main difference in the spec is mid-saps vs full-saps, which is entirely related to gas quality (sulfur content) and GPF. Same minimum HTHS.

As said before, if you want to keep the same/similar additive package as the 504 oil in a 40 grade, just run ESP X4. I don't think it's necessary unless the engine is modified/tune

So ignore the additives for a second. The 2017 US GTI calls forto 5w-40 (vw502) even if it's compatible with the other viscosities you mentioned. Meaning if you went to the dealer you'd get that. So let's just base the conversation on that.

Don't you think a change from 5w-40 to 0w-20 is significant considering it's just a new generation of the same engine even considering additive changes? Has there been some major breakthrough or new thing that came out a few years ago?

For the engine I didn't see any changes regarding oil flow. I know there are piston squirters but didn't the mk7 also have them?


Maybe I don't get how VW is getting away with such a significant drop in viscosity from the previous gen. Back in the late 90s when a car went from 10w-30 to 5w-30 people would literally get angry and claim it's going to destroy the engine.
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[kschachn]

So ignore the additives for a second. The 2017 US GTI calls forto 5w-40 (vw502) even if it's compatible with the other viscosities you mentioned. Meaning if you went to the dealer you'd get that. So let's just base the conversation on that.

Don't you think a change from 5w-40 to 0w-20 is significant considering it's just a new generation of the same engine even considering additive changes? Has there been some major breakthrough or new thing that came out a few years ago?

For the engine I didn't see any changes regarding oil flow. I know there are piston squirters but didn't the mk7 also have them?


Maybe I don't get how VW is getting away with such a significant drop in viscosity from the previous gen. Back in the late 90s when a car went from 10w-30 to 5w-30 people would literally get angry and claim it's going to destroy the engine.
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Because VW has determined that the minimum HT/HS requirement for 508 00 approval will provide acceptable wear. Many engines can achieve acceptable wear on such oils, it's when you drop below those values it requires design changes.

 

[scrllock]

So ignore the additives for a second. The 2017 US GTI calls forto 5w-40 (vw502) even if it's compatible with the other viscosities you mentioned. Meaning if you went to the dealer you'd get that. So let's just base the conversation on that.

Don't you think a change from 5w-40 to 0w-20 is significant considering it's just a new generation of the same engine even considering additive changes? Has there been some major breakthrough or new thing that came out a few years ago?

For the engine I didn't see any changes regarding oil flow. I know there are piston squirters but didn't the mk7 also have them?


Maybe I don't get how VW is getting away with such a significant drop in viscosity from the previous gen. Back in the late 90s when a car went from 10w-30 to 5w-30 people would literally get angry and claim it's going to destroy the engine.
---------------------

the change for 0w20 was accompanied with a modified oil pump gear that flows faster, will post it again in hopes google picks it up.

when I rebuilt my engine, I went through many, many parts diagrams while looking for engine blocks. the clearances on the bearings on a later GTI or a Mk8 are no different than the earlier Mk7 engines. this was the only change related to the oil system (other than the different baffling on a mk8 sump, but that has no relation to steady-state oil pressure/viscosity).

source: VW SSP 920163, audi 3rd generation 2.0l engines

 

[kloogmeister]

the change for 0w20 was accompanied with a modified oil pump gear that flows faster, will post it again in hopes google picks it up.

when I rebuilt my engine, I went through many, many parts diagrams while looking for engine blocks. the clearances on the bearings on a later GTI or a Mk8 are no different than the earlier Mk7 engines. this was the only change related to the oil system (other than the different baffling on a mk8 sump, but that has no relation to steady-state oil pressure/viscosity).
View attachment 324993

View attachment 324994

source: VW SSP 920163, audi 3rd generation 2.0l engines

So there's a higher rate of circulation of a thinner oil. I'm always curious how does this help? I'm assuming oil circulation is helpful for heat at the min.

For example if the oil creates one of those super thin surfaces between metals how would changing it out for different oil help?

 

[scrllock]

So there's a higher rate of circulation of a thinner oil. I'm always curious how does this help? I'm assuming oil circulation is helpful for heat at the min.

For example if the oil creates one of those super thin surfaces between metals how would changing it out for different oil help?

no. the modified pump generates pressure faster to compensate for the thinner oil. higher rate of circulation is not the reason they do this. oil is relatively poor for heat transfer, that's mostly the job of coolant. the only reason they go to a thinner oil is for fuel economy, and a hot oil is more efficient than a cool oil.

not entirely sure i understand your second question, but thicker oil = higher MOFT (minimum oil film thickness), thus less wear.