Liberal versus Socialism?

[jason07-1zzfe]

dickwells isn't that a good thing? Everytime I hear him talk he wants to start some new social program. Suprised the dummycrats don't like him at least. I won't be sad if he's a one termer.
Edit: I liked the one about giving a free book at the hospital to every woman that gives birth, and then a free book every year or month...something like that...it was supposed to improve literacy in inner city

Is it that hard for them to go the library?

[ May 26, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

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[Bror Jace]

"I've a right to urinate/defecate, but you don't see me carrying out these activities at the table next to you, giving you the option to change restaurants ..."

Stop it, you're killin' me!

I think the people who still want to refer to themselves as "liberal" in the classic sense need to move on. The word has been adopted and co-opted by people who largely fall into one of two unflattering categories:

1) Socialists – People who believe government or a government program is the best solution to every problem. Virtually indistinguishable from Communists.

2) Useful Idiots - People who are unwittingly working towards socialism, even if they can't or won't admit it.

Old-time "liberals" still believing in individual rights & freedoms above all else need to join the Conservative, Libertarian or even Republican parties. Despite the so-called influence of the "Christian Right," most Republicans are very moderate in their social views and are NOT the reactionaries some in the press (liberals, mostly) portray them to be.

Like Al & GSV, I'm a fairly disillusioned Republican. The national Republicans are voting for reckless spending and failing to pull off any kind of roll-back to liberal (socialism) policies. And the local Republicans (who I used to support and volunteer for) have become an arrogant, evil force, trying to push bad things down the throats of the people they are supposed to "serve."

If/when I re-register, I'm registering as a Conservative.

--- Bror Jace

PS – Yes, I absolutely loooooove Ann Coulter. You say her caustic style turns you off? I guess you forgot what it was like 15+ years ago when conservatives had only a couple columnists and National Review magazine to fight off virtually every other media outlet which was either liberal ... or VERY liberal.

Ann's a keeper.

[ May 26, 2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Bror Jace ]

 

[buster]

Fact is, most Americans and what I think are reasonable people, have Liberal and Conservative views. I really don't understand the mentality of anyone who is far left or far right. Most people I believe are moderates. I don't think you can be a rational person and be extreme one way or the other. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it's the one's on the outer fringes of both parties that create the mess we here all the time. I'd define Bush as a social conservative and fiscal Liberal. The guy has made many mistakes and it's quite clear. His own friggin party is unhappy with him.

 

[Bror Jace]

"Most people I believe are moderates. I don't think you can be a rational person and be extreme one way or the other. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, it's the one's on the outer fringes of both parties that create the mess we here all the time."

But what is a "moderate?" The media (even such knee-jerk, classic liberal stereotypes as Sam Donaldson) usually define themselves as "moderates" and that’s nuthin' but a bad joke.

Most Americans live their lives as conservatives. They hate political correctness, many (still) own firearms and would use them to defend their home, they want to keep as much of their paycheck as they can, they don't want people telling them how to live their lives (what car to drive, etc ...), most don't spend beyond their means without consequences, they don't raise their kids to be hapless victims of life's circumstances, give them free, clean needles for IV drug use nor give them condoms at age 12.

True, many all-too-often believe the liberal lies about "free" benefits from the government ... but when asked how THEY are going to pay for it, you can usually get them to admit they'd rather see lower taxes and spending cut as opposed to increased taxes along with a modicum of government benefits.

The mess we have is when conservatives transform into liberals. After they've been in government for years, they fail to see it as a problem or necessary evil. Since they are in control, the begin to look at it as a positive good ... which requires greater and greater taxes (or "fees"

) to sustain.

Political correctness continues to march forward every day, Taxes (usually) go up, not down, the 2nd amendment is becoming more and more a "theoretical" right every year, gay marriage is here (oh yay!), the schools are increasingly indoctrination camps for future "victims" of society who feel less and less responsibility for their own actions ... let alone responsibility for their community, etc ...

--- Bror Jace

 

[Mystic]

buster, I agree with you. I think most Americans are moderates and the typical person has both liberal and conservative views. It depends on what you are talking about. In some ways I am liberal and in some ways I am conservative.

Most people do not fit the extreme viewpoints. You have people on the far left who consider themselves 'liberals'-they are not. These people want to force people to behave and live a certain way. These people call themselves 'liberals' but they are really socialists.

You have people at the other opposite extreme who are religious fundamentalists. These people would also force certain viewpoints on people if they could. Discussion of religious beliefs is rather discouraged where I work but we do have a few people at work that go kind of crazy if religion is brought up. I am religious but personally myself I don't think people are going to the dark place just because they do not believe a certain way. In fact I don't attend church anymore (except for weddings and funerals). I was raised as a Catholic but all the stuff that has happened in the Catholic Church has really turned me off.

It is really more logical to travel mostly the middle road. You travel either extreme road (left or right) and that is exactly what you are doing-traveling the 'extreme' way. And any extreme position is likely going to be the wrong position. Personally myself I travel mostly the middle road, occasionally going slightly left or slightly right. I think most logical people do the same.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Have to agree w/ motorguy, Gary, and John.

Toomanywheels, a restaurant is not public. It is PRIVATE property. When the gov't starts thinking they can tell you what to do in it, we've got major problems, IMO.

You're not forced to breathe it... there are non-smoking areas. If they don't have a non-smoking area, then don't give them your business if it bothers you that much.

No I do not smoke BTW.

 

[Durrr]

the two things that bug me most about the modern democrat party are the movement towards globalism (reduction of US soverignty) and dismantling of security forces and the military. Democrat used to stand for strong national defense... no longer :\

 

[ex_MGB]

FDR's New Deal was practically word for word the 10 point program outlined in the Communist Manifesto. Living in the White House during most of WWII there was Stalin's NKVD presidential handler (Agent 19 Harry Hopkins) and living across the hall from the first lady's bedroom, her lesbian lover, a news reporter.

I don't think the Democrats have changed much since then. In fact, I think that if the ex homosexual prostitute Hitler were still alive, he'd feel right at home amongst them, however, I've been known to have some rather strong political views.

 

[dickwells]

The only place that socialism has had any credible track record is in the scandanavian countries where, Guess what? There is no "underclass" that will not take advantage of education. Any other setting and socialism has to morf into a marxist/leninist Dictatorship in order to get the ignorant/lazy portion of the population to contribute. China has now nearly completed its transformation to Fascism, a much more competetive economic system than socialism.

 

[1sttruck]

Although they don't like to admit it much these days, the Communist party helped the labor movement a lot in it's early days. Although it's currently fashionable to pooh-pah labor, people have forgotten or never knew that at one time it was perfectly acceptable for prominent businessman to call in the National Guard to deal with strikes, and to machinegun men, women, and children. In some cases the National Guard used machineguns to keep workers in the mines. If you were wealthy enough you could literally get away with murder, either due to the working conditions or by shooting the workers who complained.

The first people in this country who went to Europe to fight fascism were the members of the 'Abraham Lincoln Brigade', in the Spanish Civil War. Many of which were members of the Communist party. Again, it's fashionable to bad mouth Commies of any sort, but for contrast a lot of well known companies and political and business leaders made a lot of money selling to and supporting Nazi Germany. Some of the Bush fortune originated with his grandfather's business with Nazi Germany, to the point that companies were seized by the US Government under the 'trading with the enemy acts'.

About 80% of the casualties in the German army were on the eastern front. The Japanese didn't bother the Soviets after suffering over 60,000 casualties in 1939 at a battle that almost no one in the US seems to have heard of, Halhin-Gol. I don't think that the US would inflict as many casualties in a battle with the Japanese until Okinawa. In spite of the horrors that the Communist Party has inflicted on it's own people, I've developed a measure of appreciation for some of the work that 'Ivan', the common Red Army soldier, did in WWII.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

Somewhere along the line liberal became a dirty word. I wish I knew who made it dirty.

A liberal used to stand for personal freedom, for the little guy, for the common man.

Somewhere the "liberal" has come to mean something else.

It has come to mean helping the downtrodden by keeping them that way.

It has come to stand for an absence of personal freedom and responsibility.

It has come to stand for a thinking that government should solve each and every societal problem.

It has come to stand for litigation in the absence of common sense.

It has come to stand for entitlement as opposed to achievement.

It has come to stand for, many times, an adversarial relationship with business on all levels.

It has come to stand for being liked at the cost of respect.


A liberal cause has always been a noble path. It has been hijacked by those who scream the loudest, who are defined by political correctness to the extent that decency is an abberation. Tolerance is no longer acceptable, the norms must be become the bizarre and the bizarre must become the norms.

There used to be a ying and yang. I would not know how to describe the radical left or right today.

I don't think that either a liberal or a conservative wants to be defined on one issue. Nor do I think that either is, by definition, wrong.

I have a great deal of respect for anyone of conviction whether or not I agree with them. Those who would sway people by fear are another story.

JMO

 

[radiometer]

GROUCHO MARX,
Very well stated. I can highly respect that. Besides, I agree.