Let's talk BMW's

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird

Some say the ZHP coupe is perhaps the best 3 coupe ever made...not as complex as an M, but also not as simple as the regular 330....




I think the poor 330i I mentioned was a ZSP or maybe a ZHP. Sedan though. It had much more bolstered seats and staggered wheels.

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
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The 2006 330i was my favorite of the 3s. Black on black. At one time, it had been a good looking car. It had about the same mileage as my Mazda, about 120,000. It had the seemingly obligatory Check Engine Light on, the owner had fitted it with more appropriate Bridgestone Potenza tires, and the maintenance indicator read -7000 miles. It also appeared the owner had punched the windshield from the fist size oval cracks with lines radiating out from it right in front of the driver.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
Which Americans are these?


Our clientèle is obviously very different. The ones i see here are pampered to death and have lots of nit picking issues.
I guess it goes both ways, overkill or not enough care.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Vastly different, clearly you don't have any actual experience with a good car.

For starters German cars are designed to be fixed, unlike a lot of American [censored] that's just riveted together to get it to 100k miles.

That's a very important design philosophy that you understand after working on them. On my Mercedes their was always room to swing a wrench to get something apart, they always left you room to work. On my Chevy truck not so much.

Well that's good they are still making some of the cars with some space to work, but I don't think that common anymore, Overkill's example of a new BMW having a split liquid cooled ECU? Um, doesn't sound like that unclutters the engine bay to me. At my last track day, an Audi S4 started dumping oil and when the guy opened the hood I cringed. I don't think ease of serviceability was very high on the list of priorities when they designed that car. Fortunately for him it was the simplest oil leak it could be, a loose engine oil filter.
Anyways I'm not elbows deep into german cars too often, but it seems alot of the known problems with these cars wouldn't occur with better materials than normal cars. If your going to have 4 times the wiring as a corrola, then you'd better use better connectors and wiring than a corolla otherwise you'll have 4 times the issues! But what is a common complaint about BMW's?
I guess the market also shows that with the huge depreciation rates on these cars, they aren't that cost effective to own as used cars. At the prices of a 10 year old 3 series, I'd snap one up in a second if I thought I could maintain it for somewhere close to the costs of a japanese or american car. But odds are that it will be a very costly luxury over driving a 10 year old Neon or an Accord.


[censored] breaks what can you do.

I wouldn't recommend owning a German, or any other high end car out of warranty if spending a few grand a year on it would cause financial hardship.

You can pick up used Ferrari's cheap too because people buy them who really shouldn't and get slapped with a $10k service and can't afford it.

Still makes them amazing cars, nothing drives like a BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, or Ferrari. For a few grand a year the drive and experience of a nice car is cheap.

A Corolla is a cheap FWD POS used for tooling around at 30mph because you can't afford a good car. An M5 is a beast, I'd never in a million years consider buying a Corolla, but I'd happily enjoy an M5 and I don't really care if it blows a $1k computer. You have to pay to play.

Because at 90mph the Corolla is past is design limits and done, at 90 the M5 is oh so sweet and I can grab 4th gear and go like [censored].

Well, we all have our budgets and I'm not going to sit around and cry that I'm not driving an M5, or a V12 benz... I happen to enjoy driving my fwd POS to its limits in autocross or on a track day. Goofing around with a fast car on the street is fun too I guess, but you can't challenge your driving skills like you can at the track or under a clock unless you are suicidal... Do you do lapping days? Or go try a solo 1 competition and you'll see that all sorts of POS cars can be very very quick with a little prep. If you can beat every 4 cyl Civic there, with any of your god-like cars please post the results... Symbols on the hood don't trump physics regardless of their country of origin.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Do you do lapping days? Or go try a solo 1 competition and you'll see that all sorts of POS cars can be very very quick with a little prep. If you can beat every 4 cyl Civic there, with any of your god-like cars please post the results... Symbols on the hood don't trump physics regardless of their country of origin.


Let's see... Well, I won three autocross trophies with my E24 M6 and I've instructed at BMW CCA HPDEs since 1996.

Does that count?

Then there is my own FWD sled, a Mazdaspeed 3- it too beats up on four cylinder Civics...

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I find automotive appliances such as the Corolla to be much too dangerous for my tastes; I would almost certainly die of boredom if I had to drive one on a daily basis...

Ditto!

I need a car that does what I tell it and tells me what it's doing. Most cars these days seem to leave at least one of those boxes un-ticked...

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: MCompact
I find automotive appliances such as the Corolla to be much too dangerous for my tastes; I would almost certainly die of boredom if I had to drive one on a daily basis...

Ditto!

I need a car that does what I tell it and tells me what it's doing. Most cars these days seem to leave at least one of those boxes un-ticked...

I tend to agree. That's why I ditched a brand new Accord after only a year, but I think it being a slushbox was my biggest issue. I found driving my sister's Corolla 1.4 with a manual trans more entertaining and involved than driving my V6 Accord.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Do you do lapping days? Or go try a solo 1 competition and you'll see that all sorts of POS cars can be very very quick with a little prep. If you can beat every 4 cyl Civic there, with any of your god-like cars please post the results... Symbols on the hood don't trump physics regardless of their country of origin.


Let's see... Well, I won three autocross trophies with my E24 M6 and I've instructed at BMW CCA HPDEs since 1996.

Does that count?

Then there is my own FWD sled, a Mazdaspeed 3- it too beats up on four cylinder Civics...

Sounds good, how many times have you passed a benz or a BMW with twice the HP of your 318 on a lapping day? All the time I'm sure. I guess Lord Hattares can't understand than you don't need a $50K car to have fun on the track or on the road, but whatever, he can spend his money as he sees fit and I'll spend mine.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan

Sounds good, how many times have you passed a benz or a BMW with twice the HP of your 318 on a lapping day? All the time I'm sure. I guess Lord Hattares can't understand than you don't need a $50K car to have fun on the track or on the road, but whatever, he can spend his money as he sees fit and I'll spend mine.


I'll agree that the driver makes a much bigger difference. I had a B Group student in an E46 325iC that had only a few minor engine and suspension mods; she passed a 911, an E92 M3, and an EVO X. And she was on street tires...

 

[45ACP]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Do you do lapping days? Or go try a solo 1 competition and you'll see that all sorts of POS cars can be very very quick with a little prep. If you can beat every 4 cyl Civic there, with any of your god-like cars please post the results... Symbols on the hood don't trump physics regardless of their country of origin.


Let's see... Well, I won three autocross trophies with my E24 M6 and I've instructed at BMW CCA HPDEs since 1996.

Does that count?

Then there is my own FWD sled, a Mazdaspeed 3- it too beats up on four cylinder Civics...

Who likes E30s?

The first M3 was a 4-cyl...

4-cyl Civics are whipping boys.

Honda is funny next to BMW.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan

Sounds good, how many times have you passed a benz or a BMW with twice the HP of your 318 on a lapping day? All the time I'm sure. I guess Lord Hattares can't understand than you don't need a $50K car to have fun on the track or on the road, but whatever, he can spend his money as he sees fit and I'll spend mine.


Remember he drives a Chevy Pickup. I own a few of them and they will numb your spirit if that's all you get to do.

One thing anyone quickly learns at any HPDE is that the car is only a very small part of the lap time. The DRIVER is everything.

I've taught that lesson to many a fine German automobile owner!

 

[hypervish]

The Honda 4 cylinder has VTEC though, that's got to add 600 horsepower, which will win against any BMW... JK, sorry I had to. Dang ricers thinking their cool with their ugly [censored] civic

 

[JHZR2]

I think that Overk1ll, d00df00d and a few others have said all that need to be said. But to be fair, there have been a few high-ish profile issues with BMWs. Think M42 profile gaskets, V8 nikasil blocks, the bearing issue, the HPFP.

Then again, a lot of this is because of the engines and designs being a half generation or better ahead of mainstream. There is the risk-prone trailblazer and there is the mainstream that reaps the benefits. It is ALWAYS that way, in most any industry.

My 91 318i is less trouble prone than our 94 integra or 89 corolla were. That's why the 318i is still in my fleet.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP



Who likes E30s?

The first M3 was a 4-cyl...

4-cyl Civics are whipping boys.

Honda is funny next to BMW.


Say what you will about Honda. But there was a time that BMW took Honda very seriously.

They were both motorcycle companies that built cars.

When Honda introduced the Acura line, the automotive press proclaimed "HONDA BUILDS A BETTER BMW."

The Acura NSX was everything the M1 promised to be, and you could actually buy one.

Honda turned around Rover. Not immediately, but they did make improvements to the Rover lineup to the point that you could get a proper formal English interior in a car with Honda V6 power and reliability. BMW interiors were still Teutonic black holes compared to the English. They were doing it with English workers at European wages and Rover was threatening to become a legitimate competitor to BMW and Mercedes Benz.

One automotive magazine was able to lap a road course faster in an "wrong wheel drive" Integra Type R than they could in an E30 M3.

I do not believe that BMW wanted Rover at all when they bought it. I believe they wanted a backdoor into Honda. At least access to their technology and building techniques. The German suits did not read the contracts very well and had to tuck tail between their legs and go to Japan to seal the deal. They had to concede Asian production of Rover vehicles to Honda and Rover eventually became "The English Patient" that cost BMW $6 billion and their CEO his job.


Now, Honda and Acura are not really a threat. They seem to be happy with mass market appliances and Tier II luxury. But at one time, Honda was a big threat to BMW

 

[d00df00d]

Well said, Spazdog.

Coming down a few orders of magnitude, the RSX Type-S and 2006-2011 Civic Si are still among my favorite cars ever. As much as I feel I never want another FWD car again, those cars might be exceptions. They are not quick, but they don't have to be because they are a blast to drive. I always prefer a car that's fun at normal speeds to one that is faster but requires speed to be fun.

I've never driven an S2000 but I've heard similar things about it in comparison to the competition, i.e. it can make your everyday commute feel like a day at the track. The difference there is that the S2000 is pretty quick in the right hands, too. :]

That relates to one thing I don't like about BMW, especially today. Nothing they make these days seems to be fun unless you're driving at alarming (for public roads) speeds. Even my car, a '96 model, is a bit like that.

So, yes, I agree that Honda is not to be written off just because they mostly make economy cars and half-baked luxury cars. There have been many gems over the years that show that Honda is clearly capable of making excellent cars when they want to. And heck, if we're honest, even their econoboxes and half-baked luxury cars have typically been pretty well engineered for what they are.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
The Acura NSX was everything the M1 promised to be, and you could actually buy one.


Really? What did the M1 promise?
The M1 was built as a test mule and for a specific racing series. A few hundred were sold retail. It was never intended as a production competitor to other super cars of the era.
Much of the technology found its way into later M models.
The Z1 was a similar exercise.
Quote:
They were both motorcycle companies that built cars.


One was an aircraft engine manufacturer first.

Quote:
the automotive press proclaimed "HONDA BUILDS A BETTER BMW."


One called the Vega a revolution also.
Quote:
Honda turned around Rover. Not immediately, but they did make improvements to the Rover lineup to the point that you could get a proper formal English interior in a car with Honda V6 power and reliability. BMW interiors were still Teutonic black holes compared to the English. They were doing it with English workers at European wages and Rover was threatening to become a legitimate competitor to BMW and Mercedes Benz.


Basically true but you took some liberties including Mercedes, Rover was never viewed as any threat to Mercedes with the 75.
Quote:
do not believe that BMW wanted Rover at all when they bought it. I believe they wanted a backdoor into Honda

They may have also wanted 4 wheel drive technology for their upcoming X models more than how Honda manufactures engines or cars.
Quote:
The German suits did not read the contracts very well and had to tuck tail between their legs and go to Japan to seal the deal.

I would like to see some documentation on this one.
Without i think this is just embellishment for the sake of promoting Honda.
Quote:
Although the 20 percent cross shareholding links between Rover and Honda's U.K. manufacturing subsidiary were swapped in May, leaving BMW in 100 percent control of Rover, all of Rover's existing product- and technology-sharing arrangements with Honda will continue. Honda and Rover will still collaborate on the Theta-Honda HH Program, which will include a new family car to replace the present Rover 200/400 Honda Concerto

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4070/is_n98/ai_16359632/pg_2/

Quote:
They seem to be happy with mass market appliances and Tier II luxury

More like tier IV luxury or III with Some Acura.
1 Being Rolls, Bently, Maybach
2 Being Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Some VW

Honda always made a good bike but their cars with only a few exceptions have always been just run of the mill mundane Japanese cars IMO.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Trav


They may have also wanted 4 wheel drive technology for their upcoming X models more than how Honda manufactures engines or cars.


If that were the case, one might think that the X3, X5, or X6 would be a bit more capable off road like a Range Rover....but they are not. The other Bimmer-phile theory was that CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder (whose great-uncle was Sir Alec Issigonis) wanted to restore the MINI name but if that was the case then it was an expensive marque and Pischetsrieder would not have gotten the axe. The final theory is that BMW just wanted to set Honda's advance in Europe back a few years. If that was the case then it was an expensive and short lived gambit and furthers my theory that BMW at least viewed Honda as a threat.

Quote:
The German suits did not read the contracts very well and had to tuck tail between their legs and go to Japan to seal the deal.

Originally Posted By: Trav
I would like to see some documentation on this one.
Without i think this is just embellishment for the sake of promoting Honda.


It was well documented in Ed Wallace's Wheels in the Star Telegram. I cannot find the article now but trust me. The contracts were not signed in Munich.
Mr Wallace's opinion may not match mine about BMW attempting to gain a substantial stake in Honda, but if you e-mail him I'm certain that he will verify that the contracts were signed in Japan and that Honda retained rights to produce Rovers in Asia.

Oh, and don't take the NSX thing personally. Honda schooled a lot of premium European marques when they introduced the NSX.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Oh, and don't take the NSX thing personally. Honda schooled a lot of premium European marques when they introduced the NSX.

I think his point was that it's pointless to compare the NSX to the M1 because the M1 was never intended to be as serious a production car as the NSX was.

Not saying I agree; just saying.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

A BMW will punish you if you neglect it.
BMW has in the past screwed up with certain engine families.
I really think US owners get short changed on the Castrol oil available for sale.
I miss my,'03ZHP but love the diesel.
The performance gap is closing so BMW is having to differentiate itself via options and electronics has never been their strong suit.
I sincerely believe these are fantastic driving cars.

 

[Trav]

That is one point, the other being the cars are at least a generation apart.
The M1 was groundbreaking in many aspects for BMW.
Quote:
in many ways, was the precursor of the Acura NSX, in other words, an exoticar that was reliable and comfortable enough to be an everyday driver


http://www.drivingtoday.com/greatest_cars/bmwm1/index.html

 

[Trav]

Quote:
If that were the case, one might think that the X3, X5, or X6 would be a bit more capable off road like a Range Rover....but they are not.

Sorry but thats wrong.
Quote:
Rover's takeover ended up being helpful for BMW in the area of development of the X5. The engineers at BMW were able to review and use Range Rover technology and parts in their design of the X5, including hill-descent control. The design of the X5 was heavily influenced by its British counterpart, included the two-piece tailgate taken directly from the Range Rover.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z3216/BMW-X5.aspx
Quote:
The other Bimmer-phile theory was that CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder (whose great-uncle was Sir Alec Issigonis) wanted to restore the MINI name

Your history doesn't go back far enough.
BMW has been involved with Austin long before the Mini. The first BMW was the Dixi an Austin 7 produced under license.
BMW has done remarkably well with the new Mini producing a lot more long term profit than the purchase price.
Quote:
contracts were signed in Japan and that Honda retained rights to produce Rovers in Asia.

If BMW wanted to make a deal with Honda i would expect they would seal the deal in Japan.
But thats far from..
Quote:
The German suits did not read the contracts very well and had to tuck tail between their legs and go to Japan to seal the deal.

Which is IMO a complete fabrication. Are we to believe the extensive legal team of BMW is incapable of reading a contract properly? That kite wont fly.

I have nothing but praise for the NSX, it was a great car with some fantastic technology at a good price point, a winner in every respect but using the NSX to somehow minimize the M1 is just wrong.