Let's talk BMW's

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Quote:
And, the main reason I left the M3 wasn't because of the ride. It was due to the electrical problems, I was having.


I've heard, and seen enough from family and friends to know that I don't want a BMW, again.


Did anything else happen besides electrical problems? How much did it run you in repairs?[/quote]

If we took seriously everything family and friends say about cars, we wouldn't own any car from any maker.
A BMW may require attention that a Camry or an Accord doesn't.
These are intended to be enthusiasts' cars, so they may require a little more maintenance than mainstream cars do, much to the dismay of the posers who often buy them.
Case in point, a guy I work with recently traded an ES300 (Camry in drag) for a three year old 32K five series.
I told him to find a good indie, check out the various BMW boards, and be proactive about maintenance.
A Lexus is a Toyota, while a BMW isn't.
Care for the car as it requires, and it will give many years and miles of reliable and entertaining service.
Treat a BMW as you would a Toyota or a Honda, and it will give more trouble than half a dozen of either.
Is a BMW worth the trouble?
That's up to the owner.

 

[Spazdog]

I'm glad someone brought this up.

In the past 2 weeks, I've done installs on 4 BMWs. 3 3-ers and one poor 5-er. All three had check engine lights on and various problems.

The 525i had quite nearly 200,000 miles and it was obvious that it had not been loved during at least the most recent part of it's life. It could not be left idling or it would overheat, the windows did not roll down, mismatched tires, and the displays in the center stack did not work. But it did have nearly 200,000 miles and a neglectful driver.

The 328i had the noisiest cooling fan ever. Sounded like an electric leaf blower and it came on whenever the key was turned on. Bald Continentals. Check engine light on. About 80,000 miles.

The newer 325i also had the check engine light on. The driver had lovingly fitted it with Chinese "Triangle" brand tires.

The 2006 330i was my favorite of the 3s. Black on black. At one time, it had been a good looking car. It had about the same mileage as my Mazda, about 120,000. It had the seemingly obligatory Check Engine Light on, the owner had fitted it with more appropriate Bridgestone Potenza tires, and the maintenance indicator read -7000 miles. It also appeared the owner had punched the windshield from the fist size oval cracks with lines radiating out from it right in front of the driver.

All of them had this hideous black crust on bottom of the oil cap and sludge and varnish were present from what little I could see throught the fill hole.

I started paying attention to the BMWs coming in. One 318ti with over 220,000 miles is perfect. Driven by a very nice lady in her late 50s. Always clean. No check engine light. Quality tires in good condition. Not a dent on it.

Then theres the 745i. Same condition as the 318ti. But the owner has spent a mint keeping it that way. I know because I've seen the receipts. The seat controls are badly placed and the early i-Drive is not only user-unfriendly but has a glitch that occasionally spontaneously changes the language. But he loves that car and treats it as such.

The rest? Ratted out. All had check engine lights on amongst a myriad of other problems. 100,000 miles is not enough to be that ratted out and bad.

You see on the web, all these accounts of how loved and cared for these "ultimate driving machines are" but the reality is:

Based on that, I would not be comfortable buying a used BMW. The CPOs are probably better but cost very nearly as much as new.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I'm glad someone brought this up.

In the past 2 weeks, I've done installs on 4 BMWs. 3 3-ers and one poor 5-er. All three had check engine lights on and various problems.

The 525i had quite nearly 200,000 miles and it was obvious that it had not been loved during at least the most recent part of it's life. It could not be left idling or it would overheat, the windows did not roll down, mismatched tires, and the displays in the center stack did not work. But it did have nearly 200,000 miles and a neglectful driver.

The 328i had the noisiest cooling fan ever. Sounded like an electric leaf blower and it came on whenever the key was turned on. Bald Continentals. Check engine light on. About 80,000 miles.

The newer 325i also had the check engine light on. The driver had lovingly fitted it with Chinese "Triangle" brand tires.

The 2006 330i was my favorite of the 3s. Black on black. At one time, it had been a good looking car. It had about the same mileage as my Mazda, about 120,000. It had the seemingly obligatory Check Engine Light on, the owner had fitted it with more appropriate Bridgestone Potenza tires, and the maintenance indicator read -7000 miles. It also appeared the owner had punched the windshield from the fist size oval cracks with lines radiating out from it right in front of the driver.

All of them had this hideous black crust on bottom of the oil cap and sludge and varnish were present from what little I could see throught the fill hole.

I started paying attention to the BMWs coming in. One 318ti with over 220,000 miles is perfect. Driven by a very nice lady in her late 50s. Always clean. No check engine light. Quality tires in good condition. Not a dent on it.

Then theres the 745i. Same condition as the 318ti. But the owner has spent a mint keeping it that way. I know because I've seen the receipts. The seat controls are badly placed and the early i-Drive is not only user-unfriendly but has a glitch that occasionally spontaneously changes the language. But he loves that car and treats it as such.

The rest? Ratted out. All had check engine lights on amongst a myriad of other problems. 100,000 miles is not enough to be that ratted out and bad.

You see on the web, all these accounts of how loved and cared for these "ultimate driving machines are" but the reality is:

Based on that, I would not be comfortable buying a used BMW. The CPOs are probably better but cost very nearly as much as new.


I bought a used BMW:

You just need to check the car out beforehand.

 

[hypervish]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
I'm glad someone brought this up.

In the past 2 weeks, I've done installs on 4 BMWs. 3 3-ers and one poor 5-er. All three had check engine lights on and various problems.

The 525i had quite nearly 200,000 miles and it was obvious that it had not been loved during at least the most recent part of it's life. It could not be left idling or it would overheat, the windows did not roll down, mismatched tires, and the displays in the center stack did not work. But it did have nearly 200,000 miles and a neglectful driver.

The 328i had the noisiest cooling fan ever. Sounded like an electric leaf blower and it came on whenever the key was turned on. Bald Continentals. Check engine light on. About 80,000 miles.

The newer 325i also had the check engine light on. The driver had lovingly fitted it with Chinese "Triangle" brand tires.

The 2006 330i was my favorite of the 3s. Black on black. At one time, it had been a good looking car. It had about the same mileage as my Mazda, about 120,000. It had the seemingly obligatory Check Engine Light on, the owner had fitted it with more appropriate Bridgestone Potenza tires, and the maintenance indicator read -7000 miles. It also appeared the owner had punched the windshield from the fist size oval cracks with lines radiating out from it right in front of the driver.

All of them had this hideous black crust on bottom of the oil cap and sludge and varnish were present from what little I could see throught the fill hole.

I started paying attention to the BMWs coming in. One 318ti with over 220,000 miles is perfect. Driven by a very nice lady in her late 50s. Always clean. No check engine light. Quality tires in good condition. Not a dent on it.

Then theres the 745i. Same condition as the 318ti. But the owner has spent a mint keeping it that way. I know because I've seen the receipts. The seat controls are badly placed and the early i-Drive is not only user-unfriendly but has a glitch that occasionally spontaneously changes the language. But he loves that car and treats it as such.

The rest? Ratted out. All had check engine lights on amongst a myriad of other problems. 100,000 miles is not enough to be that ratted out and bad.

You see on the web, all these accounts of how loved and cared for these "ultimate driving machines are" but the reality is:

Based on that, I would not be comfortable buying a used BMW. The CPOs are probably better but cost very nearly as much as new.


I bought a used BMW:

You just need to check the car out beforehand.


Exactly. Nothing wrong with buying a used BMW, or any car for that matter. You just have to take a good look at things, and make sure they are in good condition.

The car has a golden rule too... "treat me, like you would your wife, and I'll provide hundreds of thousands of reliable, and trouble-free miles"

 

[hattaresguy]

Yeah well buy a better German car, get a Mercedes or Porsche and you won't have to worry about engine failures, lol.

Seriously though things are going to break if you make enough of them.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: hypervish
I had a 2002 BMW M3 E46, before I traded it in for my RX300. I owned it for 3 years, and the first year was fine. It had a few electrical issues, that were sorted out. The last two years, were not the greatest. The dealer was fed up with the car, as was I. It had a few rattles that never seemed to go away, no matter how much the dealer attempted to fix them. The ride was harsh, all though some people may like that type of ride. The drivetrain wasn't smooth, I could feel the vibration's at idle, and it wasn't as nearly as refined as the Lexus I traded it in for, which not to mention was older than it by 2 years.

Sounds like all you did was switch from a sporty car to the kind of sensory deprivation tank you really wanted all along.

I think you have an odd definition of refinement, but I'm glad you're happy.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: shrooms
IMO, BMW is an extremely overrated brand. Sub par quality. A car this 'expensive' should not have this issue. My neighbor just bought a brand new 7 series and I actually felt bad for him. He asked me how do I like the car and I didn't have the heart to tell him that he bought junk.

Beautiful LOOKING car, but it's junk.


How is it junk? Please explain this.


Its "junk" because he doesnt like it.

I wouldn't say its junk, but how far apart are the construction and assembly techniques of a 7 series and say a Corolla? Is the 7 series interior door panel put on with stainless steel hardware? vs. a normal car where it just snaps into place with plastic clips? I suspect the doors are put together the same way as is the rest of the car. Obviously a 7 series uses thicker glass and more comprehensive sound proofing, but its not full of CNC'd bonded aluminum parts where normal cars use plastic or stamped sheet metal... I doubt the wiring connections or switches, or even the unit body uses better grades of metal in most cases.
I can't argue that the BMW isn't the nicer car overall, but its still made on an assembly line, with the same materials as most cars.



Vastly different, clearly you don't have any actual experience with a good car.

For starters German cars are designed to be fixed, unlike a lot of American [censored] that's just riveted together to get it to 100k miles.

That's a very important design philosophy that you understand after working on them. On my Mercedes their was always room to swing a wrench to get something apart, they always left you room to work. On my Chevy truck not so much.

 

[Audios]

I personally love working on BMWs out of all of the major european brands. We do semi-specialize in them at my shop though. I think they actually think about the technician and how simpler=lower warranty costs. Id actually like to get out of my S4 and into an older M5, preferably E28. Of course, E39 would be my dream, but being I can get parts relatively cheap, Id prefer not to have a loan payment. I also love fixer uppers, anyone know of a barn find somewhere?

 

[ls1mike]

My sister in law had a 2001 ish 325I, It seemed to be a good car with limited electrical problems, it did however always have brake issues, not sure why. Could be dealer or could have been her driving but it ate them up. She got rid of it with 114,000 miles (finacial reasons). Seems to me it was no less reliable then say my Buick with a 3800, which except for the intake gasket has been rock solid. It went to shop a few times was fixed and she moved on. I liked how it rode and I liked the interior, just thought it should have been faster. If memory serves me that thing used a GM 5L40E, almost the same one I had in 03 CTS. They shifted very different. I suppose line pressure and tunning were the big differences.

 

[mva]

Originally Posted By: Audios
I personally love working on BMWs out of all of the major european brands. We do semi-specialize in them at my shop though. I think they actually think about the technician and how simpler=lower warranty costs. Id actually like to get out of my S4 and into an older M5, preferably E28. Of course, E39 would be my dream, but being I can get parts relatively cheap, Id prefer not to have a loan payment. I also love fixer uppers, anyone know of a barn find somewhere?


I have also found my BMW is fun to work on and fun to drive.

But the number of problems and potential serious problems with this car is mind boggling. If would be very painful if you are the type to take it to the BMW dealer for repairs.

Z3 and Z3M issues:

replace entire cooling system before 100,000 miles or risk a blown rad or water pump or plastic thermostat housing.

replace shocks and rear shock mounts

gearshift light shorts and burns out headlight switch which controls dash lights

dash light bulbs burn out and heater controls fail

rear differential support cracks and or truck floor welds let loose $$$

window and seat tracks require repairs

expensive oxygen sensors fail

etc, etc,

 

[CBR.worm]

We have had a few of them and they do require more shop visits than the Toyotas and Nissans that I also tend to buy. Ours have not had as many issues combined as the one Oldsmobile Touring Sedan I bought new in '89 and kept for amost two years had, and I have never had a mechanical (hard part) failure.

What ours have had are strange electrical gremlins that never get fixed, and are typically only mildly annoying. Software problems. Engineers who think it is OK to have to put a car on a charger if you don't drive XX miles per week. Having to have the glove compartment pulled out of the car to program the ECU to accept a new battery (luckily under warranty at 4 years, 48K). Things that a japanese car MFG would never let happen.

What you get is a superb driving machine that has a decent interior and very logical/intuitive systems related to the driving experience. Perfect variable ratio power steering. Perfect feedback. Great seats. Excellent brakes that compensate automatically for temperature. Brake hot and overtemp warning indicators. Perfect, legible gauges. Very intelligent auto trannies that actually do what you think they should. Logical variable throttle relative to accelerator position based on gear and driving mode/conditions. Excellent cruise control.

The best part is that you don't even notice any of it - they just drive like they should whether you are cruising at triple digit speeds, going down a mountain road or taking the kids to school.

Unfortunately the ancillary stuff is not so logical. I have never seen a BMW with a good cupholder or inuitive stereo.

I will be the first to admit that I keep Japanese cars longer than I would a BMW. In reality my last few Japanese cars have required as much work as the BMW's, but don't have the programming issues that the BMW's have had or the potential cost associated with an out of warranty repair. They also don't feel or drive like a BMW. I get nervous when I see a BMW odometer nearing the 100K mark, more than I do when I cross the 200K mark on a Japanese car. That notwithstanding, one of my highest mileage cars was a mid 80's 325e that just wouldn't die. The odometer did though, so I don't know how many miles it actually had.

 

[nleksan]

Well, if any of you have read my posts, you know I bleed blue and white... I have driven cars of literally every make available in North America, and while I could have gotten a 2002-2003 911 Turbo, I decided to pour that money into making my 328 a beast. There is nothing like a BMW, Mercedes don't even compare, IMO, with their vague steering and portly curb weight.
I have never had a serious issue with any of my 3 current bimmers, save for subframe failure that was paid for by BMWNA to the tune of over $9k, to remove the entire rear end and replace with a reinforced M3 subframe and various other parts, and the car was 3yrs out of warranty.

If you love them and aren't trying to pinch pennies, they will serve you well. Do 5k oil changes, and no, MobileOne is not ideal for these cars, RL/RP/Total/Motul is a necessity. You saw the sludge in the picture above. I have seen that many, many times. My own cars were sludged, but RL and RP cleaned them to like new, and have kept them as such.

THE KEY IS PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE, AND YOU MUST BE STRICT, TO MILE. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD 7qts OF $10/QT OIL EVERY 5K, YOU CANNOT AFFORD THE CAR.
SIMPLE.

Sorry for the caps, but it is so easy to understand! Yet no one seems to grasp it...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
Well, if any of you have read my posts, you know I bleed blue and white... I have driven cars of literally every make available in North America, and while I could have gotten a 2002-2003 911 Turbo, I decided to pour that money into making my 328 a beast. There is nothing like a BMW, Mercedes don't even compare, IMO, with their vague steering and portly curb weight.
I have never had a serious issue with any of my 3 current bimmers, save for subframe failure that was paid for by BMWNA to the tune of over $9k, to remove the entire rear end and replace with a reinforced M3 subframe and various other parts, and the car was 3yrs out of warranty.

If you love them and aren't trying to pinch pennies, they will serve you well. Do 5k oil changes, and no, MobileOne is not ideal for these cars, RL/RP/Total/Motul is a necessity. You saw the sludge in the picture above. I have seen that many, many times. My own cars were sludged, but RL and RP cleaned them to like new, and have kept them as such.

THE KEY IS PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE, AND YOU MUST BE STRICT, TO MILE. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD 7qts OF $10/QT OIL EVERY 5K, YOU CANNOT AFFORD THE CAR.
SIMPLE.

Sorry for the caps, but it is so easy to understand! Yet no one seems to grasp it...


Well put!

And that's just it. A lot of people buy them for the image but can't afford to look after them like they should be, and are unable to work on them themselves.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
...

If you love them and aren't trying to pinch pennies, they will serve you well. Do 5k oil changes, and no, MobileOne is not ideal for these cars, RL/RP/Total/Motul is a necessity. You saw the sludge in the picture above. I have seen that many, many times. My own cars were sludged, but RL and RP cleaned them to like new, and have kept them as such.

THE KEY IS PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE, AND YOU MUST BE STRICT, TO MILE. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD 7qts OF $10/QT OIL EVERY 5K, YOU CANNOT AFFORD THE CAR.
SIMPLE.

Sorry for the caps, but it is so easy to understand! Yet no one seems to grasp it...


That's counterindicated on the engine itself:

But otherwise I agree.

It's a shame that the lion's share of BMW owners do not share your passion for their cars. 100,000 miles and they are used up.

 

[antonmnster]

Good lord this is the biggest troll-fest I've ever seen on this board!

 

[nleksan]

BMW Syn and Castrol had my engine sludged and varnished like crazy at 40k. Over 40k later with 2 out of every 3 OCIs being Royal Purple and the other being Redline, not to mention the engine making 2.5-3x the original power, and my engine internals are clean enough to eat off of.
So I could give two s****s about BMW's recommendation. I do not follow the 15k OCI's, so why should I trust them on the oil? That is something that is up to me, regardless of it is a Camry, an M3, or a Ferrari...I am not going to be one of those "well, umm, see, if the mfgr says, well, its the best, then, uh, umm, it is clearly the best". That nonsense drives me crazy. I will challenge anyone on here RIGHT NOW to come to Cincinnati, and we can each go and buy a brand new e92 M3, and the bet is on the other's car. You can run your factory recommendations, I will do what I have always done. I guarantee you that I will be walkimg away from that with two M3's: the excellent condition, zero problem, mirror clean engine one that I took care of, as well as a sludged up, poorly maintained, pathetic excuse for an M engine...

You all are here to learn about oils, yet half the people here seem to preach "the car manufacturers are always right, they have a direct line to the car.gods", and the rest get wet dreams over the entirely-vanilla and unspecial M1 0w40.
This isn't coming from some stupid kid, either, it is coming from a biochemical engineer who has modified many BMWs to varying degrees, with hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles and never have I ever experienced a single engine problem.

If you buy a BMW thinking it is no different from a Toyota, I am sorry, but you are just naive, stupid, or a spoiled rich kid. The thing about this that makes me so freaking angry is that these kinds of people are constantly asking questions about how many thousands I must spend on repairs and whatnot, or telling me my cars are junk. The other half is that people who don't know a single thing about their car and don't give two $hi** about anything except the brand end up screaming how [censored] they are, while trying to sell their abused, battered, sludged, and never once repaired BMW to someone else at a premium, because I have found that the biggest enthusiasts tend to buy used, yet are constantly getting screwed over by brand-name groupies and people who spend $55k on a car but will not spend $80 to do a proper oil change every 5k miles. STOP BUYING S**T YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO MAINTAIN, BECAUSE YOU JUST END UP SCREWING SOMEONE ELSE OVER!

/endrant

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
Well, if any of you have read my posts, you know I bleed blue and white... I have driven cars of literally every make available in North America, and while I could have gotten a 2002-2003 911 Turbo, I decided to pour that money into making my 328 a beast. There is nothing like a BMW, Mercedes don't even compare, IMO, with their vague steering and portly curb weight.
I have never had a serious issue with any of my 3 current bimmers, save for subframe failure that was paid for by BMWNA to the tune of over $9k, to remove the entire rear end and replace with a reinforced M3 subframe and various other parts, and the car was 3yrs out of warranty.

If you love them and aren't trying to pinch pennies, they will serve you well. Do 5k oil changes, and no, MobileOne is not ideal for these cars, RL/RP/Total/Motul is a necessity. You saw the sludge in the picture above. I have seen that many, many times. My own cars were sludged, but RL and RP cleaned them to like new, and have kept them as such.

THE KEY IS PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE, AND YOU MUST BE STRICT, TO MILE. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD 7qts OF $10/QT OIL EVERY 5K, YOU CANNOT AFFORD THE CAR.
SIMPLE.

Sorry for the caps, but it is so easy to understand! Yet no one seems to grasp it...


I agree 100%. Since 1983 I've owned nine BMWs and currently have three in the garage. The ti is my track rat and was purchased new in November of 1995. At 127,000 miles it has needed a thermostat, a brake light switch, a heater hose coupling and a couple of idler pulleys along with the serpentine belts. Oh yeah, it also needed one set of pads and rotors- along with a bunch of tires... The X3 has 131,000 miles on it and it needed an SRS seat sensor under warranty. Out of warranty I've replaced pads and rotors(once), the serpentine belt, and one HID bulb($39.50 for a Phillips D2S from Amazon)

Contrast that with my Mazdaspeed 3; in 97,000 miles it has needed one front strut, a new turbo, a VVT actuator, an EGR valve, and two rear shocks. I stupidly thought it would also make a good track toy

I think I'll stick with my unreliable Bavarian vehicles, thanks...

 

[shrooms]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: shrooms
IMO, BMW is an extremely overrated brand. Sub par quality. A car this 'expensive' should not have this issue. My neighbor just bought a brand new 7 series and I actually felt bad for him. He asked me how do I like the car and I didn't have the heart to tell him that he bought junk.

Beautiful LOOKING car, but it's junk.


How is it junk? Please explain this.


I did.

 

[jigen]

Where? I only see two posts of yours in this thread. One of them being "I did."

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Vastly different, clearly you don't have any actual experience with a good car.

For starters German cars are designed to be fixed, unlike a lot of American [censored] that's just riveted together to get it to 100k miles.

That's a very important design philosophy that you understand after working on them. On my Mercedes their was always room to swing a wrench to get something apart, they always left you room to work. On my Chevy truck not so much.

Well that's good they are still making some of the cars with some space to work, but I don't think that common anymore, Overkill's example of a new BMW having a split liquid cooled ECU? Um, doesn't sound like that unclutters the engine bay to me. At my last track day, an Audi S4 started dumping oil and when the guy opened the hood I cringed. I don't think ease of serviceability was very high on the list of priorities when they designed that car. Fortunately for him it was the simplest oil leak it could be, a loose engine oil filter.
Anyways I'm not elbows deep into german cars too often, but it seems alot of the known problems with these cars wouldn't occur with better materials than normal cars. If your going to have 4 times the wiring as a corrola, then you'd better use better connectors and wiring than a corolla otherwise you'll have 4 times the issues! But what is a common complaint about BMW's?
I guess the market also shows that with the huge depreciation rates on these cars, they aren't that cost effective to own as used cars. At the prices of a 10 year old 3 series, I'd snap one up in a second if I thought I could maintain it for somewhere close to the costs of a japanese or american car. But odds are that it will be a very costly luxury over driving a 10 year old Neon or an Accord.