Landlord required to keep building up to code?

[SecondMonkey]

Moving into a new shop that I am leasing. Previous occupant made a mess of the place, nothing is up to code. Electrical is dangerous. Plumbing is pathetic. Galvinized HVAC ducting on the wood stove. I could go on...

Basically when I moved in, I agreed to fix what the previous tennant did and bring everyting up to code. Today I called her and told her we'll need some new stove pipe, some wire/conduit, GFCI outlets, and a few other things. The expectation is that she would be paying for these parts.

So she waffles and whines about it, says they don't really want to invest the money and "if we went through the whole building and made everything up to code that would cost a fortune".

She claims the building is "losing money" on a monthly basis, but I don't buy that. She inherited it free and clear and makes more than $8,000/month in rent. The only way she could be losing money is if she's spending it up her nose...(not to mention she drives a fancy new car and her husband is well employeed)

So in other words she knows the whole industrial complex she owns is basically a death trap, but won't do anything about it. Am I wrong to think that the landlord is REQUIRED to keep her building fully up to code, and probably required to be up to code before she even allows me or anyone else to occupy it?

I should also point out that I'm only asking for the cost of parts, and doing the work myself, for free, which is technically illegal in itself. (but all I'm doing is fixing the dangerous stuff) I'm not even asking for money, I'm just telling her she needs to take the cost off the rent. Not asking, telling.

Do I need to make an annonymous call to the building inspector? The place she owns is made up of more than one building and pretty much everything is WAY, WAY, WAY against code. Plumbing, electrical, air quality, structural issues....

 

[JustinC25]

Yes

 

[ksJoe]

All work has to be done in accordance with the code at the time it was done. Every time the change the code, old buildings & work are "grandfathered in".

If the previous tenant did this work, presumably it was recently, and should be in accordance with current codes. Wiring has a manufacture date on it for just this reason. If there is new wire and you can find a date...

If you call the inspector (or health dept. too, I think), yes they can force some things. Its not legal, but she could try to evict you, raise rent, etc in retaliation.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
She claims the building is "losing money" on a monthly basis, but I don't buy that.


Yeah, and a drug dealer that got shorted 3gms of crack in a 1oz purchase "lost money" too.

She's losing money because she can't pull the big rents that she think she deserves.

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

She's got a great tenant that's willing to do the work for only the cost of parts, and she's waffling? What an idiot.

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
She's losing money because she can't pull the big rents that she think she deserves.

My thoughts exactly. I think she thinks she's "losing money" because she's got two empty units for rent. She's currently earning double rent on my unit because the former occupant got arrested and his dad paid off the rest of his lease until next year. Now I'm paying for it too.

I'll have to read my lease a little closer, but if she refuses to bring the entire place up to code, can I walk on my lease? That would be a *GREAT* thing to hold over her head in the future.

(plus I can get up and leave whenever I want) Also if I say I'm going to walk with my monthly rent she might re-think the cost of those $15 outlets. Or what if I get shocked and sue her? How much is that gonna cost...

I know pretty much nothing is grandfathered in, as best I can tell the place was semi remodeled in 1995 and nothing was even close to code then. I doubt they had any permits for anything. I was renting a shop bay in a bigger building she has but got tired of the neighbors, so I'm moving to my own seperate building, otherwise I'd be on her more about it being a fire/electrocution hazard.

Is it outright illegal for her to lease my old shop out to a new tennant fully knowing it is not up to code, unsafe, and ungrandfathered? Just curious...

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
She's got a great tenant that's willing to do the work for only the cost of parts, and she's waffling? What an idiot.


Oh gawd I could go on about that all day. In my last shop I couldn't paint one wall white because it wouldn't "match" the other half blue/half white walls in the shop. The wall I wanted to paint for free is in terrible condition, looks really bad, is full of holes, painted at least 4 colors, etc...

I would literally remodel the entire place from top to bottom for parts, but she would laugh at the thought of that. If she really is losing money for some reason and I can screw her with the building inspector, now may be a good time to make an offer to buy the shop I'm leasing...

 

[gmchevroletruck]

I'm in the construction and service field (hvac)...

One option is just to call code enforcement...she's messin with you, so mess back. Get it done...she'll change her tune real quick about messing with you, and probably let you out of your lease if she doesn't comply.

Because construction is down nationwide, local code enforcement officials in almost every locale are sitting with nothing to do, and that means no revenue coming in from permits...they're in a position where they need to pull in revenue or face layoffs.

It may stir up a hornets nest from her, but...do you REALLY want to be tied to her anyway? Possibly tell her you'll call code if she doesn't do it, then see what she says. They'd have a field day over there and love it, from the sounds of it. She's looking out for herself and not willing to budge, show her some of her own medicine, so you won't get screwed. I hate landlords like that..slum-lords basically, the way they act.

In a commercial building like that, code has the authority to shut them down, and she doesn't want that

 

[AcuraTech]

Let's be realistic here. I've lived in quite a few rental units in my day, and getting the landlord to perform repairs always takes some arm twisting. Every landlord I've ever dealt with will only do the *BARE MINIMUM* to get past the legal letter of the law.

Nothing has changed since the middle ages. If you rent, you're the peasant. If you're the landlord, you're the hierarchy. EVERY landlord EVERYWHERE will put the MINIMUM amount of money into a building while extracting the MAXIMUM amount of profit. You'd be a fool to believe otherwise.

Most leases are also stuffed with some pretty sweet clauses such as: "If a dispute arises requiring legal action, tenant will be responsible for all legal fees accrued by the leasing company" Wow. So if I take em' to court, I have to pay THEIR lawyer bills. Outstanding.

The only way out of this stupid circle is to OWN.

 

[gmchevroletruck]

That's very true...I guess I was assuming these were safety issues, but maybe some of them are not. That's a very good point.

As long as the place is "habitable" and "safe", even if it's not the Ritz, that's what you get.

If your rent is enough to pay for a comparable place that is much newer and better maintained, then you have a lot to complain about or a move to make.

Good point.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: AcuraTech

Most leases are also stuffed with some pretty sweet clauses such as: "If a dispute arises requiring legal action, tenant will be responsible for all legal fees accrued by the leasing company" Wow. So if I take em' to court, I have to pay THEIR lawyer bills. Outstanding.


I like the clause that requires the tenant to put the rent into an escrow account if they're disputing the eviction.

This is required because professional tenants know they can work the system by getting multiple continuances on an unlawful detainer, meanwhile the amount they owe the landlord (and will never pay) continues to grow.

For every bad landlord story, there's a bad tenant story too. I have the $2500 judgment to prove it. I'll never see any of that money.

As far as the situation here goes, what you should expect to get from a landlord when you're renting a commercial property is a bit different than what you should expect to get when you're renting a residential property. The laws are a lot stricter about residential rentals, also. For example, there's an entire Virginia Residential Landlord Tenant Act. It does not apply to commercial rentals.

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: gmchevroletruck
As long as the place is "habitable" and "safe", even if it's not the Ritz, that's what you get.

That's the problem. It ain't. Specific safety violations would include bare, live wires hanging out in various places, no GFCI outlets, water heaters with no proper piping on the safety release valve, and my CO detector went off today. Nobody knows why. Not only would a building inspector freak out, I think OSHA would too on all the tennants.

Don't get me wrong, I like the building I'm in, that's why I just moved there. But I also expected it to be safe and up to code. Part of why I moved to my own seperate building, is because of various hazards from the neighbors I had on both sides. The place is a death trap. I don't know how they've gotten away with leasing this place like this since at least 1995.

It may be worth it though for me to keep quiet and fix my building at my cost, and if any problem ever arrises, I can totally screw her over.

Originally Posted By: gmchevroletruck
she's messin with you, so mess back.

Oh yeah, that's one of my hobbies.

She's really poking a hornets nest with me...

 

[AcuraTech]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: AcuraTech

Most leases are also stuffed with some pretty sweet clauses such as: "If a dispute arises requiring legal action, tenant will be responsible for all legal fees accrued by the leasing company" Wow. So if I take em' to court, I have to pay THEIR lawyer bills. Outstanding.


I like the clause that requires the tenant to put the rent into an escrow account if they're disputing the eviction.

This is required because professional tenants know they can work the system by getting multiple continuances on an unlawful detainer, meanwhile the amount they owe the landlord (and will never pay) continues to grow.

For every bad landlord story, there's a bad tenant story too. I have the $2500 judgment to prove it. I'll never see any of that money.

As far as the situation here goes, what you should expect to get from a landlord when you're renting a commercial property is a bit different than what you should expect to get when you're renting a residential property. The laws are a lot stricter about residential rentals, also. For example, there's an entire Virginia Residential Landlord Tenant Act. It does not apply to commercial rentals.


Touche. That's why the best bet is always to own the property, so that you can shape it as you see fit.

 

[Audi Junkie]

So she shot you down on the cement job?

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
So she shot you down on the cement job?

I haven't asked, but clearly she won't pay for it and it doesn't need to be up to any code...(honestly she might not even notice)

Basically I'll do whatever I want back there with the worst risk being my $600 security deposit. (which I've already written off anyway)

 

[eljefino]

I would find out who insures the place and tip them off.

Or, take all sorts of pictures of the wood stove etc and store them elsewhere. If/when the place burns down, show the adjuster. If the stove isn't listed on her policy they might not pay.

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I would find out who insures the place and tip them off.

I really like that idea. But how might I find out who the insurance co is without asking the landlord?

 

[SecondMonkey]

Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey
Originally Posted By: eljefino
I would find out who insures the place and tip them off.

I really like that idea. But how might I find out who the insurance co is without asking the landlord?


On that same note - is there an anonymous way I can find out whether a building has a mortgage on it or not?

 

[eljefino]

Your town should have a tax office with all kinds of deed info. Maybe even what it was last sold at. Permits for subdividing etc. Lots of potential dirt there.

 

[ksJoe]

Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey
I'll have to read my lease a little closer, but if she refuses to bring the entire place up to code, can I walk on my lease?


If its really as bad as you make it sound... When you involve the inspector and/or health dept, they can condemn the property, kick all the tenants out, and give the landlord a short amount of time to make repairs before the buildings come down.

So... You may not be able to walk, but the gov can force you out.