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Which is exactly why I stick to big names like Mobil 1 and Pennzoil. I can't trust small companies' expertise and experience to achieve that perfect balance, and I don't want to be their guinea pig.
Lake Speed Junior High Zinc Oil new video
- Thread starter LordNilesStandish
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I believe the specific point of his testing was early failure during break in. He also measured the cam for wear.
It's irrelevant though. This discussion is unrelated to his video.
There’s always an element of trust when using unapproved boutiques. But sometimes the small guys are the most trustworthy and experienced. Dr. Leslie Rudnick comes to mind.
I put Supertech 10W30 “20k” oil in my younger sisters 21” Cub Cadet with a 160cc Honda.
You think that people are guinea pigs for Red Line, HPL and Amsoil? By what basis?
You have no clue what you're talking about here.
Take it for what it's worth. I'm not saying I agree, but I'm not qualified to refute him either. He worked in NASCAR and has done a lot of engine oil analysis and teardowns.
From LSJ:
"We could correlate used oil analysis results with actual engine wear. We did both used oil analysis and measured engine wear on the same test engines, and increased measured wear resulted in higher wear metals in used oil analysis. We could change oils and measure the difference in wear either way accurately."
From LSJ:
"We could correlate used oil analysis results with actual engine wear. We did both used oil analysis and measured engine wear on the same test engines, and increased measured wear resulted in higher wear metals in used oil analysis. We could change oils and measure the difference in wear either way accurately."
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I would agree if you're not just looking at iron wear particles. And in race engines wearing, iron is the least of my worries.
see changes in tin/lead/copper etc and you know where wear is going.
I think it also takes someone experienced and someone that really knows the metallurgy of the engine you're dealing with to be able to identify trends and spikes in wear metals via UOA. We know F1 teams rely on it, so it's clearly identifying wear. The metals are not just magically appearing out of nowhere. The type, severity etc. are another story.
I don’t watch any of his videos. Rather read Buster, TOM NJ and OVERKILL and MolaKules posts.
People often have concerns that are unfounded or founded on faulty perceptions. Flip the script and say the majors are founded ONLY on short quarterly reports, to fatten the bottom line. I've read that here too, so they use just enough additives, just base oils within a class on price point.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, and if you are working with a specific engine, built a specific way for a specific application, I'm sure that you could determine some level of correlation between UOA results and actual physical wear, in that specific engine, that has been painstakingly verified via multiple teardown + oil analysis in aggregate. The problem is trying to extrapolate the use of data derived from UOA's outside of this structure in the same manner, where you do not have any correlation data whatsoever and the engine is a mass produced item with considerably more variation in its manufacture.
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SMH
All good brother. I shake my head at the repeated posts on here daily about one oil.
And operated in a specific way.
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One word, envy, almost to the point of jealousy.
I have a lot of respect for Lake, generously sent him Youtube Thanks a few times.
I like LSJR videos. There's very little actual content on youtube that is actually worth someting. I can think of 3 channels for different reasons, all for different reasons. I wish there was more.
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I loved his video where he proved that the cheapest oil meeting the spec beats the Amsoil OE. But Haters are going to say that Lake doesn't know what he's talking about. Fame and honesty attract a lot of haters, that's how the world works
If anything, those small blenders are more balanced and tested than the majors considering the compromises the majors must make to adhere to API restrictions. A good example is higher ZDDP, MoDTC, and ester preventing LSPI better than reducing calcium, but API restrictions, and the manner in which approved add packs are licensed, prevents this method.
When it comes to API and other licenses, you have to consider the objective behind them. API is not some fully staffed bureau out to enforce regulations. They're essentially a committee of company representatives vying for the best interest of said companies. Cost and availability are often at the forefront. There's just a 3% annual audit and no real punishments if a licensed brand fails. It's a slap on the wrist and do better next time. That's how you end up with oils like Rotella T6 that busts D892 by more than 2x the API limit. Performance takes a back seat to profit.
Even if the majors wanted to make oils similar to HPL's formulas, they couldn't do it in bulk. The S tier base oils and unique chemistry HPL uses isn't available in sufficient quantity to meet their demand. Even if they could, the additional cost would mean they're no longer competitive with other brands on the Walmart shelf. Nobody is going to pay $50-60/gal for Mobil 1. It's just not going to happen. The average consumer thinks "oil is oil" and doesn't know API even exists. The boutique small blenders aren't crammed in that small box and thus have a lot more freedom in formulating.
I sound like a broken record but so does everyone else on this site.
It's important to realize two things that are absolute facts:
1. UOA's show wear metals. Period. Doesn't matter how or why, if you end up with Fe, Tin or any other metal that goes, it's not all in your head. It's actual wear. It may be small and it may even be from corrosion, but it's wear. It's no coincidence that some of the longest lasting engines that don't show high wear metals in UOA's (Toyota) last long periods of time. Metals don't just magically appear in your oil for no reason.
2. Major oil manufacturers offer tiers - base blend that just meets the specifications to their top tier that EXCEEDS ALL of the industry tests by a wide margin. Price is usually indicative of performance.
Take Castrol EDGE EP as an example. Castrol was able to make an oil that under the most ideal conditions could potentially last 25k miles, while still meeting specifications including some demanding MB specs all while keep SA at around .70.
3. Boutique brands are going by reputation only with minimal testing. Once you play around with additive packages, and run you simplistic bench testing, you then test in the field. Red Line would basically run their oils back in the day in their own cars and if nothing blew up they were good to go. Mobil can run and test 500 blends per month. See an advantage?
4. Economies of scale enable mass producers to still deliver good oils at reasonable prices.
It's important to realize two things that are absolute facts:
1. UOA's show wear metals. Period. Doesn't matter how or why, if you end up with Fe, Tin or any other metal that goes, it's not all in your head. It's actual wear. It may be small and it may even be from corrosion, but it's wear. It's no coincidence that some of the longest lasting engines that don't show high wear metals in UOA's (Toyota) last long periods of time. Metals don't just magically appear in your oil for no reason.
2. Major oil manufacturers offer tiers - base blend that just meets the specifications to their top tier that EXCEEDS ALL of the industry tests by a wide margin. Price is usually indicative of performance.
Take Castrol EDGE EP as an example. Castrol was able to make an oil that under the most ideal conditions could potentially last 25k miles, while still meeting specifications including some demanding MB specs all while keep SA at around .70.
3. Boutique brands are going by reputation only with minimal testing. Once you play around with additive packages, and run you simplistic bench testing, you then test in the field. Red Line would basically run their oils back in the day in their own cars and if nothing blew up they were good to go. Mobil can run and test 500 blends per month. See an advantage?
4. Economies of scale enable mass producers to still deliver good oils at reasonable prices.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
And content geared to be palatable to the vast majority of people is necessarily limited in terms of breadth and depth of technical data, which unfortunately leads to erroneous or flawed "conclusions" as perceived by this audience. Sensationalism drives uptake. That's how you play the algorithm, and I applaud him for being very good at it.
Fame and sensationalism attract a lot of idiots. There's a reason the Kardashians are rich and famous, and it isn't because they have an intellect on par with Hawking. There's a reason you probably didn't have a clue who Dr. Rudnick was before joining this site (assuming you do now), and why people like David Suzuki are famous, while those like Dr. Osami Hanjo aren't.
Being a good communicator is a skill. Being able to make content about a subject which most of your audience isn't likely to ever truly understand while still fostering a desire to consume that content is a gift and illustrates a strong grasp of that skill. I suspect this may be in part due to his educational background, which is a BA in Advertising, but to be able to sell this content, which is pretty dry, to Joe Average in volume? That takes more than just education. That's the proverbial "selling ice to an Eskimo" and that takes a certain kind to be able to pull off.
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