Vote to fix it.
Keep the clunker or buy something "new"?
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That's not that old, nor that high a mileage - fix it up to snuff and enjoy no car payment, lower insurance and registration, no fussing over scratches/etc for a few more years.
Take the $ that would have gone for a new car and pay yourself - save it in a separate account towards a new car purchase or invest it for retirement, etc. Don't let that money just disappear into the air - if you could make a car payment if needed, then after these repairs are paid for, you can afford to put some money aside. In a couple/few years when its really time for a new car, you'll be much better off...
Take the $ that would have gone for a new car and pay yourself - save it in a separate account towards a new car purchase or invest it for retirement, etc. Don't let that money just disappear into the air - if you could make a car payment if needed, then after these repairs are paid for, you can afford to put some money aside. In a couple/few years when its really time for a new car, you'll be much better off...
I am not a huge fan of keeping cars 'till they die, especially when they are 15 years old. Unless, they have been meticulously maintained, and all problems taken care of. AND, there is no rust, corrosion and deterioration of plastic parts. AND the overall condition is very pleasing.
Complex, older vehicles can be a headache. Many owners "fix up" their older vehicle, justifying the expense against the cost of a newer car. Only to have significant trouble a short time later and trade it in, giving up on "the project".
I don't want to force you into spending money you shouldn't. But I also think a smart purchase will keep you driving another 15 trouble free years. That's worth something well after the payments are complete.
I don't much care for the Altima's. I rent them all the time. I'd rather rent nearly anything else.
Complex, older vehicles can be a headache. Many owners "fix up" their older vehicle, justifying the expense against the cost of a newer car. Only to have significant trouble a short time later and trade it in, giving up on "the project".
I don't want to force you into spending money you shouldn't. But I also think a smart purchase will keep you driving another 15 trouble free years. That's worth something well after the payments are complete.
I don't much care for the Altima's. I rent them all the time. I'd rather rent nearly anything else.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
1999 camrys are better built than those nowadays. JMO of course.
I disagree. The current 4 cylinder Camry is a well made vehicle. And there is no reason to suggest that they are inferior. In fact, there are some really nice advantages to the new ones.
1999 camrys are better built than those nowadays. JMO of course.
I disagree. The current 4 cylinder Camry is a well made vehicle. And there is no reason to suggest that they are inferior. In fact, there are some really nice advantages to the new ones.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: eljefino
1999 camrys are better built than those nowadays. JMO of course.
I disagree. The current 4 cylinder Camry is a well made vehicle. And there is no reason to suggest that they are inferior. In fact, there are some really nice advantages to the new ones.
Limes to oranges but... My parents bought a 2012 Camry and it feels no where robust as my 2001 MR2. It is cheaper. Best case example, why is there "carpet" being used as the interior wheel arch material. There is just a lot more "build it to a pricepoint" in the engineering... especially in the interior materials. Now, I think the modern car is a "nicer" car than previous models but I do not think it is built as well.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
1999 camrys are better built than those nowadays. JMO of course.
I disagree. The current 4 cylinder Camry is a well made vehicle. And there is no reason to suggest that they are inferior. In fact, there are some really nice advantages to the new ones.
Limes to oranges but... My parents bought a 2012 Camry and it feels no where robust as my 2001 MR2. It is cheaper. Best case example, why is there "carpet" being used as the interior wheel arch material. There is just a lot more "build it to a pricepoint" in the engineering... especially in the interior materials. Now, I think the modern car is a "nicer" car than previous models but I do not think it is built as well.
Every mile you can squeeze out of a older vehicle will be cheaper than a new vehicle even with most repairs. When you sell a usable car, you are selling the use remaining in that vehicle and it is often for less than you acquired if for. When buying new/newer frequently, you are buying that "worry free" idea... which is not a real product nor is it guaranteed. If anything, that is just an attempt to guard against uncertainty. Mechanical parts fail, but most fail about at a certain time depending on the design. So making sure that your component are "younger" than that point is paying for that "worry-free" but thing can fail before that point. Still, it is a mechanical item so those parts can be replaced and you "reset" that item. What folks forget is that when you buy or sell a car, you are setting the value. So if someone has a $10K car or a 1K car which might need a new transmission, if folks think "it cost more than the car is worth" is making a huge error because unless the item is sold, the item has no real worth. So having a $1K car with a repaired transmission is still cheaper than buying a newer car and since you are not "selling" the cheaper repaired car, repairing for more than it is worth is mute because if it is not for sale, it has not real "worth". Repairing the $10K compared to its worth is also mute as unless you sell the car, repair to worth is mute. Value is not set until the sale. Thus, what you have to look at is the cost per mile and many "younger" cars can never win this metric. (You can toss safety into this and things might be a lot different). If you get a 150K car for $3,000 (ignoring fuel, tax, fees, insurance, repair etc) and drive it to 200K, it is $0.06 per mile. If you buy a $20,000, you have to drive it over 300K to get the same cost/benefit. You have to crunch the numbers. Now, will I pay for the "worry-free" option... for my wife yes because she panics like the world will end if the low tire pressure monitoring gauge comes on. Just not have her being a nervous ball of anxiousness is worth paying premium... for some. However, calling it the "smart" option is a bit daft. It is a luxury at best.
Now if the vehicle is constantly acting up and it is major repair bill after major repair bill, then yes, time to get rid of it. When a well-kept 91K 2006 Chrysler kept hitting a family member's wallet for 1500+, then yeah, consider it. When after 4K in repairs and the next bill was estimated to be 2.4K, then it was taken to the Toyota dealership for "trade". The cost per mile was increase astronomically here. That is the time were a older car might have outlived its usefulness. Now major rust to the unibody or frame is also a killer in my opinion. That is how my '79 Datsun was eventually sold for parts. Still, it lasted 29 years and 361 days from purchase and was as reliable as could have been.
15 years old isn't that old
Average age of the US auto is about 11 years now. You could drive that Camry for another 15 years and be worry free as well. There is no guarantee that a new vehicle will not leave you stranded... they just cover the cost of the repair for X many miles/years. That is what happened with the '06 Chrysler... the older 15 year old car was much more reliable than the Chrysler junk.
The bigger challenge with 15yo+ cars can be finding parts depending on the popularity of the model. My '01 MR2 had a production run of about 20K units over 6 years (Corollas sell over 200K in a month). Finding parts for the MR2 can be a chase, even at the Toyota Dealership. However, unless you have something even rarer than my MR2 then you are normally in good shape until that 25 year mark and then it gets a bit more dicey.
Now if the vehicle is constantly acting up and it is major repair bill after major repair bill, then yes, time to get rid of it. When a well-kept 91K 2006 Chrysler kept hitting a family member's wallet for 1500+, then yeah, consider it. When after 4K in repairs and the next bill was estimated to be 2.4K, then it was taken to the Toyota dealership for "trade". The cost per mile was increase astronomically here. That is the time were a older car might have outlived its usefulness. Now major rust to the unibody or frame is also a killer in my opinion. That is how my '79 Datsun was eventually sold for parts. Still, it lasted 29 years and 361 days from purchase and was as reliable as could have been.
15 years old isn't that old
The bigger challenge with 15yo+ cars can be finding parts depending on the popularity of the model. My '01 MR2 had a production run of about 20K units over 6 years (Corollas sell over 200K in a month). Finding parts for the MR2 can be a chase, even at the Toyota Dealership. However, unless you have something even rarer than my MR2 then you are normally in good shape until that 25 year mark and then it gets a bit more dicey.
FutureDoc, I agree with all you said--with one quibble. If you can "smell" a repair coming, sometimes you can unload and save money, in that it's a repair you didn't have to do--or that the next buyer isn't cutting your price down on. Easier to unload a moving car vs one that won't drive.
Also, 15 years is a long time in the rust belt. Not impossible to hit that age, but not as easy.
Also, 15 years is a long time in the rust belt. Not impossible to hit that age, but not as easy.
Supton, True
Yeah, rust is the big killer with age. I would still have my Datsun if it was not for rust. (And I live in the mountains too, more snow/salt).
That big repair is always a good debate. If you are looking at a engine rebuild on a car with a weak transmission and iffy suspension... yeah, you might need to consider a new car. That was the trick with my family's "new" Chrysler and what happened to the Datsun. I was looking at a engine rebuild on a car with a rust-only unibody. The few grand into the engine would not have done anything for a car with a poor frame. There definitely is the "take each car individually". Despite the minor repair items, the OP's Camry is probably good for a few more years (depending on the rust... and my brother lived in Morris MN so I got a decent feel of the environment despite being a southerner). I do not think that being 15 years old is not an instant sell point.
Yeah, rust is the big killer with age. I would still have my Datsun if it was not for rust. (And I live in the mountains too, more snow/salt).
That big repair is always a good debate. If you are looking at a engine rebuild on a car with a weak transmission and iffy suspension... yeah, you might need to consider a new car. That was the trick with my family's "new" Chrysler and what happened to the Datsun. I was looking at a engine rebuild on a car with a rust-only unibody. The few grand into the engine would not have done anything for a car with a poor frame. There definitely is the "take each car individually". Despite the minor repair items, the OP's Camry is probably good for a few more years (depending on the rust... and my brother lived in Morris MN so I got a decent feel of the environment despite being a southerner). I do not think that being 15 years old is not an instant sell point.
I seem to get hammered on rust--my wife didn't drive her Civic for I think two months (didn't occur to me to take it for a spin, both of us were brain dead, what with our first child) and it locked up a drum in that amount of time. Mind you, this was in May. Two months, one frozen brake. I think it wound up needing all brake surfaces being turned, or maybe new rotors, don't recall now. I unloaded that car at 10 years/173k after doing wheel bearings and exhaust; it needed complete a/c replacement, headliner was coming down and I was fearful of brake lines going (see aforementioned rust problems). Getting ABS and side airbags was a nice perk, as it's the wife's mommie-mobile.
I crawled under the Camry this fall and could see the rust starting, after only two years/55kmiles. I just patched up four holes on the Jetta; that is 9 years old and 285k, but it isn't so bad underneath. This weekend I noticed a weeping fuel line, and the other fuel lines have what look like weather cracking...
I crawled under the Camry this fall and could see the rust starting, after only two years/55kmiles. I just patched up four holes on the Jetta; that is 9 years old and 285k, but it isn't so bad underneath. This weekend I noticed a weeping fuel line, and the other fuel lines have what look like weather cracking...
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
I would get an estimate of work so you can make an informed decision.
Personally I would keep driving/fixing and save money("make payments to yourself") at the same time. Fix the safety stuff like breaks/brakes. Oil leaks(small) are easy to fix by buying a case of inexpensive motor oil and topping it.
To make this car easy to sell yourself with a conscious the brakes need to be in working order. In trade in that will negate its value quite fast with any lights on dash.
Personally I would keep driving/fixing and save money("make payments to yourself") at the same time. Fix the safety stuff like breaks/brakes. Oil leaks(small) are easy to fix by buying a case of inexpensive motor oil and topping it.
To make this car easy to sell yourself with a conscious the brakes need to be in working order. In trade in that will negate its value quite fast with any lights on dash.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
When buying new/newer frequently, you are buying that "worry free" idea... which is not a real product nor is it guaranteed. If anything, that is just an attempt to guard against uncertainty.
I disagree, depending on choice. There are cars with 100,000 powertrain warranties. If you choose one of those, you are guaranteed to have a viable powertrain for that period of use.
Not only that, but many new vehicles have factory, internet, available extended warranties, for a fraction of the cost the dealership asks.
The other advantage of purchasing new, is that you know the service history. You can use a quality oil, regularly change engine + transmission fluid, perform used oil analysis and research common faults prior to warranty expiration.
I still vote for a new vehicle. It's very likely you will achieve 15 years of reliable service if you choose another Camry. You cannot say that about your older car.
When buying new/newer frequently, you are buying that "worry free" idea... which is not a real product nor is it guaranteed. If anything, that is just an attempt to guard against uncertainty.
I disagree, depending on choice. There are cars with 100,000 powertrain warranties. If you choose one of those, you are guaranteed to have a viable powertrain for that period of use.
Not only that, but many new vehicles have factory, internet, available extended warranties, for a fraction of the cost the dealership asks.
The other advantage of purchasing new, is that you know the service history. You can use a quality oil, regularly change engine + transmission fluid, perform used oil analysis and research common faults prior to warranty expiration.
I still vote for a new vehicle. It's very likely you will achieve 15 years of reliable service if you choose another Camry. You cannot say that about your older car.
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100,000 mile warranties are not a guarantee that the item will remain problem free, it means you will not cover (at least some part of) the tab. Often there other requirements that cost money to claim them.
It is not the "new" as the important qualifier, it is "frequently".
Buying new is not the question and knowing the service history etc is a valid argument for new. I have bought new and used. However, if you buy new, one should use that vehicle for the serviceable life of the car because the investment in the vehicle is high. If you can get more years/mile, then get it. He might not get another 15 years from the Camry or another 160K, but if he gets 5 years and another 50K from it, it is a lot lower cost (cost per mile) than buying new/new now. Heck, if you know you are looking towards the "autumn years" of the vehicle's life, start saving so you can buy better or buy the next car outright and save even more money. If a car has minor and even significant mechanical items to be addressed, address them. When you are looking at frame/unibody rust, compound major mechanical issues, or that many repairs do not create a serviceable car, then yeah, get something that works. Just because it is "old" or has miles on it does not justify a new purchase. You can make a 1960s era a decent daily driver if you want. Cars are mechanical tools and can be rebuilt.
Those "extended warranties" are a different issue, uggg.
It is not the "new" as the important qualifier, it is "frequently".
Buying new is not the question and knowing the service history etc is a valid argument for new. I have bought new and used. However, if you buy new, one should use that vehicle for the serviceable life of the car because the investment in the vehicle is high. If you can get more years/mile, then get it. He might not get another 15 years from the Camry or another 160K, but if he gets 5 years and another 50K from it, it is a lot lower cost (cost per mile) than buying new/new now. Heck, if you know you are looking towards the "autumn years" of the vehicle's life, start saving so you can buy better or buy the next car outright and save even more money. If a car has minor and even significant mechanical items to be addressed, address them. When you are looking at frame/unibody rust, compound major mechanical issues, or that many repairs do not create a serviceable car, then yeah, get something that works. Just because it is "old" or has miles on it does not justify a new purchase. You can make a 1960s era a decent daily driver if you want. Cars are mechanical tools and can be rebuilt.
Those "extended warranties" are a different issue, uggg.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Really, that really stinks. I could kinda see the suspension thing (wearing part) but the welds? Come on Toyota...dropping this one bad.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Really, that really stinks. I could kinda see the suspension thing (wearing part) but the welds? Come on Toyota...dropping this one bad.
If given the choice of continuing to drive that car or taking on a car payment I would choose to continue to drive that car under the assumption that rust wasn't an issue (you said it wasn't).
I would start by picking the most critical issue and resolving it, and just working down the list until everything was fixed. Even if you pay a shop to do the work in my mind it's better to just pay to have it all done than be chained to a car payment for the next four or five years.
I would start by picking the most critical issue and resolving it, and just working down the list until everything was fixed. Even if you pay a shop to do the work in my mind it's better to just pay to have it all done than be chained to a car payment for the next four or five years.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Really, that really stinks. I could kinda see the suspension thing (wearing part) but the welds? Come on Toyota...dropping this one bad.
It does stink. I think they should have done better. OTOH, I'm guessing it would make it to 10 years, even if I did nothing: but it'd be done for at that point. Which in some ways means, well, "good enough". 10 years, 200-250kmiles, not sure you can ask for that much more. Well, you can, but it certainly isn't in the best interest of the OEM to build it for that kind of longevity; and most buyers today certainly won't pay for it.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Really, that really stinks. I could kinda see the suspension thing (wearing part) but the welds? Come on Toyota...dropping this one bad.
It does stink. I think they should have done better. OTOH, I'm guessing it would make it to 10 years, even if I did nothing: but it'd be done for at that point. Which in some ways means, well, "good enough". 10 years, 200-250kmiles, not sure you can ask for that much more. Well, you can, but it certainly isn't in the best interest of the OEM to build it for that kind of longevity; and most buyers today certainly won't pay for it.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Really, that really stinks. I could kinda see the suspension thing (wearing part) but the welds? Come on Toyota...dropping this one bad.
It does stink. I think they should have done better. OTOH, I'm guessing it would make it to 10 years, even if I did nothing: but it'd be done for at that point. Which in some ways means, well, "good enough". 10 years, 200-250kmiles, not sure you can ask for that much more. Well, you can, but it certainly isn't in the best interest of the OEM to build it for that kind of longevity; and most buyers today certainly won't pay for it.
I think if the manufacturers actually advertised the features that lead to a car lasting a long time, many used car only buyers might spring for a new car. I agree that many new car buyers are into looks and gizmos, but there is a whole group of folks you can afford new cars, but crunch the numbers and go with used.
KIA could be a brand to pull it off, they can coast along using hyundai's engineering for the mechanical bits, and then spend some of the money saved on better materials to reduce rust and wear.
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Well, I know the Toyota corrosion warranty is 5 years unlimited mileage so I would suggest seeing how much the dealership would act on that. You should have 3 more years of coverage there.
They won't touch it--I'm talking about corrosion on unpainted suspension surfaces, or painted surfaces around welds. Cheapo painting on areas that most don't look at. Simple oilcoating should stop it in its tracks--but it seems that I shouldn't have to do that.
I just wish I had oil coated it new. Live and learn. Jetta rusted mostly in areas that oilcoating would not have helped, though.
Really, that really stinks. I could kinda see the suspension thing (wearing part) but the welds? Come on Toyota...dropping this one bad.
It does stink. I think they should have done better. OTOH, I'm guessing it would make it to 10 years, even if I did nothing: but it'd be done for at that point. Which in some ways means, well, "good enough". 10 years, 200-250kmiles, not sure you can ask for that much more. Well, you can, but it certainly isn't in the best interest of the OEM to build it for that kind of longevity; and most buyers today certainly won't pay for it.
I think if the manufacturers actually advertised the features that lead to a car lasting a long time, many used car only buyers might spring for a new car. I agree that many new car buyers are into looks and gizmos, but there is a whole group of folks you can afford new cars, but crunch the numbers and go with used.
KIA could be a brand to pull it off, they can coast along using hyundai's engineering for the mechanical bits, and then spend some of the money saved on better materials to reduce rust and wear.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
KIA could be a brand to pull it off, they can coast along using hyundai's engineering for the mechanical bits, and then spend some of the money saved on better materials to reduce rust and wear.
NO.
I demand dancing, musical hamsters.
KIA could be a brand to pull it off, they can coast along using hyundai's engineering for the mechanical bits, and then spend some of the money saved on better materials to reduce rust and wear.
NO.
I demand dancing, musical hamsters.
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