K&N demo display at murrays auto parts
- Thread starter eldawg4100
- Start date
- Status
I know of one possible exception......we have three Ford trucks in our fleet with Powerstroke diesels - they were all sucking dirt past the seal of the planar filters due to the flimsey construction of the housings. The Amsoil air filter effectively solved this problem for us, as the compressed foam around the edge better conforms to the housing. *Both OEM and Wix filters had this problem.
[ February 22, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Tommy ]
I know Ford had the K&N as stock on the Mustang Cobra-R, but I thought it was for only one model year, 2000. But nonetheless Ford used it, a pretty good endorsement. That is besides the fact Ford sells the filters too, under the name of Ford Motorsports. They dye them Ford blue.
Also, K&N makes filters for Chrsyler/Mopar and Harley Davidson I believe.
And the US Army, for their Apache helicopters that operate in the desert.
I don't know, that sounds like some pretty strong endorsements.
Also, K&N makes filters for Chrsyler/Mopar and Harley Davidson I believe.
And the US Army, for their Apache helicopters that operate in the desert.
I don't know, that sounds like some pretty strong endorsements.
I've heard before that they make them for Mopar. I know for sure they make them for Harley. If you buy a Screamin Eagle Hi Flo Breather kit for a Harley with an EVO or TC engine it comes with a K&N in the kit. This is an application where you can feal the "seat of pants" difference after installing it as well as increased induction noise, and the dyno numbers usually go up. Example EFI TC88 engines can expect to gain 6-8 horsepower after installing one of these breather kits. It doesn't hurt to have a slightly improved exhaust system as well.
Uh, as a former Apache helicopter pilot in Desert Storm, I can tell you that these filters did not work out well. The problem of dust inhalation was finally solved when we taped layers of tack cloth across the surface of the K&N filters. Also, you cannot have "microscopic strands" of cotton fiber crisscrossing "pinholes" of a milimeter or so. If you examine the molecular structure of cotton, you'll find that the material's rigidity and torsion characteristics do not allow for it. Basically, anything that is cotton that is microscopic and is not supported by some underlying medium will tear and blow away....this was a conversation I had on another board.Greaserquote:
Originally posted by Americanflag:
I know Ford had the K&N as stock on the Mustang Cobra-R, but I thought it was for only one model year, 2000. But nonetheless Ford used it, a pretty good endorsement. That is besides the fact Ford sells the filters too, under the name of Ford Motorsports. They dye them Ford blue.
Also, K&N makes filters for Chrsyler/Mopar and Harley Davidson I believe.
And the US Army, for their Apache helicopters that operate in the desert.
I don't know, that sounds like some pretty strong endorsements.
K&N started as a drag racing supplier, and the filter design still shows the roots -- high flow, short runs, low saturation environment, short maintenance cycles. For racing (but not off-road racing!), K&N is good. Yes, K&N products have been independently examined, largely by the automakers or their contracted labs. I'm not at liberty to discuss internal DC activities, and I'm not privy to other automakers' policies based on any technical results, and -- as I said -- I've been out of the loop for a couple of years. But I would pay special attention to the following factors:
1) No K&N filters are used on any warranty-covered trucks or SUVs.
2) K&N has, in the past, specifically stated that its filters may not satisfy warranty requirements in vehicles used in extended severe driving conditions. Taking any vehicle down a dirt road is a "severe driving condition," and "extended" means 5% or more of the total vehicle runtime.
3) K&N has made a large number of applications to the automakers for warranty coverage for its products. Few, if any, have been granted by the automakers before now.
4) K&N recommends a radically different off-road service specification (what you found, Lou.Fab in the fine print).
5) Any oil evaporates, or loses effective filtration coefficient as it is contaminated. When that small amount of fine oil is gone, suspension is lost, and there's no protection. The engine inhales dirt. When a paper filter clogs, the engine lives on, even if it does starve.
You can do two tests yourself.
First, hold a K&N filter up to a bright light source, and look down between the pleats. You'll see unobstructed light shining through "pinholes" of up to one-half mm. The pinholes provide much of the flow characteristics of the filter. Dirt getting through the pinholes have a probability of adhering to the oiled fiber further up in the pleats, but it's only a probability. Over 50-100K miles, a lot of dirt will over come the long odds and find its way into the engine -- much more if you drive in dirt, or you suffer oil evaporation and loss of suspension.
Second, scrub out your filter box, and place a thin piece of white cotton cloth beneath the K&N, between the filter and the intake -- something like thin diaper cloth. Tape it or use a screen so it doesn't get s u c k e d in. Drive around for a few days, go find some unpaved roads. Check the cloth. You'll see a fine sheen of oil being lost from the K&N (bad!), and you'll also see the dirt your engine is inhaling. Do the same with the paper/foam filter. Compare the results.
Long post. Conclusion: road racing -- K&N GOOD. Off-road or on in high saturation environments (like downtown driving) -- K&N not so good, unless you recharge/re-oil weekly. Like to hear what you found out.
This is a conversation that I had with a retired D/C engineer a few months ago.Greaser
1) No K&N filters are used on any warranty-covered trucks or SUVs.
2) K&N has, in the past, specifically stated that its filters may not satisfy warranty requirements in vehicles used in extended severe driving conditions. Taking any vehicle down a dirt road is a "severe driving condition," and "extended" means 5% or more of the total vehicle runtime.
3) K&N has made a large number of applications to the automakers for warranty coverage for its products. Few, if any, have been granted by the automakers before now.
4) K&N recommends a radically different off-road service specification (what you found, Lou.Fab in the fine print).
5) Any oil evaporates, or loses effective filtration coefficient as it is contaminated. When that small amount of fine oil is gone, suspension is lost, and there's no protection. The engine inhales dirt. When a paper filter clogs, the engine lives on, even if it does starve.
You can do two tests yourself.
First, hold a K&N filter up to a bright light source, and look down between the pleats. You'll see unobstructed light shining through "pinholes" of up to one-half mm. The pinholes provide much of the flow characteristics of the filter. Dirt getting through the pinholes have a probability of adhering to the oiled fiber further up in the pleats, but it's only a probability. Over 50-100K miles, a lot of dirt will over come the long odds and find its way into the engine -- much more if you drive in dirt, or you suffer oil evaporation and loss of suspension.
Second, scrub out your filter box, and place a thin piece of white cotton cloth beneath the K&N, between the filter and the intake -- something like thin diaper cloth. Tape it or use a screen so it doesn't get s u c k e d in. Drive around for a few days, go find some unpaved roads. Check the cloth. You'll see a fine sheen of oil being lost from the K&N (bad!), and you'll also see the dirt your engine is inhaling. Do the same with the paper/foam filter. Compare the results.
Long post. Conclusion: road racing -- K&N GOOD. Off-road or on in high saturation environments (like downtown driving) -- K&N not so good, unless you recharge/re-oil weekly. Like to hear what you found out.
This is a conversation that I had with a retired D/C engineer a few months ago.Greaser
These are his credentials (retired D/C engineer)from the above post on K&N...I'm sixty-six years old. I worked for Willys in my youth, took a twenty year break, and until I retired last year I worked for (Daimler)Chrysler. I was systems design engineer for the CJ2a, the CJ3, and the CJ5. I was production design chief for the YJ/TJ during the 96-97 shift-over.
The TJ is, without a doubt, the best-engineered, most
durable, and most capable quarter-ton ever. The only downside is the systems difficulty for the backyard mechanic -- it's a bit harder to fix outside of the shop, and some of the parts are made to replace rather than to repair. I own a TJ, a CJ5, and a CJ2a. When I want to turn heads in town, I take my 2a. When I want to do a radical turn up Diablo Canyon around meter-high boulders, or I want to do sixty mph on hairpin pavement, I take the TJ, because I do not want to die just yet....this was a bit from another board I frequent.Greaser
The TJ is, without a doubt, the best-engineered, most
durable, and most capable quarter-ton ever. The only downside is the systems difficulty for the backyard mechanic -- it's a bit harder to fix outside of the shop, and some of the parts are made to replace rather than to repair. I own a TJ, a CJ5, and a CJ2a. When I want to turn heads in town, I take my 2a. When I want to do a radical turn up Diablo Canyon around meter-high boulders, or I want to do sixty mph on hairpin pavement, I take the TJ, because I do not want to die just yet....this was a bit from another board I frequent.Greaser
I am using a JR filter now, which is the mfg of the Kool Blue filters. They claim 2.5 micron @ 99% but they use cotton and oil as the filtering mechanism. The media construction is different from K&N but how well would they filter given that they use oil like the K&N.
Greaser, regarding the Apache helicopters in desert storm and the K&N air filters, wouldn't it be a bit wrong to ding K&N over problems when I would think any air filter would have some difficulties when operating in the desert under imperfect conditions in an Appachee helicopter?? I mean, a helicopter has to draw in some serious air, and in the desert? If K&N did the job at all don't they deserve credit?
And is a little oil residue so bad? I just don't want Si getting in.
And is a little oil residue so bad? I just don't want Si getting in.
Don't forget now..these are all conversations from various people that I had on a different board.I was using K&N filters at the time.After these posting I had from them in reguards to the same questions you are asking me...I took them out and returned to OEM paper...wasn't worth the chance for me.What you do with this info is your decision to make.quote:
Originally posted by Americanflag:
Greaser, regarding the Apache helicopters in desert storm and the K&N air filters, wouldn't it be a bit wrong to ding K&N over problems when I would think any air filter would have some difficulties when operating in the desert under imperfect conditions in an Appachee helicopter?? I mean, a helicopter has to draw in some serious air, and in the desert? If K&N did the job at all don't they deserve credit?
And is a little oil residue so bad? I just don't want Si getting in.
Those Apache helios have a bad track record. Another one just went down in the Persian gulf.
They have been the topic of heated debates over safety and cost. Lots of unexplained crash's.
They have been the topic of heated debates over safety and cost. Lots of unexplained crash's.
If your airbox is allowing water in, it's a defective design. Do whatever you need to do to get by. First, check and see if your vehicle maker has an improved airbox available.
The paper in paper filters is special stuff and resistant to humidity. If you live in a place where the humidity is so great that the filter media looks damp, try different media--other brands of 'paper' first, then maybe oiled cotton gauze. Local knowledgeable vendors should know what works in your area.
Ken
The paper in paper filters is special stuff and resistant to humidity. If you live in a place where the humidity is so great that the filter media looks damp, try different media--other brands of 'paper' first, then maybe oiled cotton gauze. Local knowledgeable vendors should know what works in your area.
Ken
Water can and will get into your airbox.
Either directly or indirectly as moisture.
Simply stating that an airbox always runs dry is ignorant.
If the air intake is high right under the hood panel,then it will suck in moisture from humid air or rain splashes, etc...
If the air intake is in the wheel well, then it will suck in water from flooded areas, tire splashes, etc...
My 88 Dodge aries would suck in lots of water into the engine if you decided to go "off-roading"
Either directly or indirectly as moisture.
Simply stating that an airbox always runs dry is ignorant.
If the air intake is high right under the hood panel,then it will suck in moisture from humid air or rain splashes, etc...
If the air intake is in the wheel well, then it will suck in water from flooded areas, tire splashes, etc...
My 88 Dodge aries would suck in lots of water into the engine if you decided to go "off-roading"
I don't seem to get your point here.I understand that moisture is everywhere,and is on the intake,and who goes off-roading in a K car?I'm talking going thru a river with water sometimes coming over the hood,not splashing rain water from the wheel well.In that circumstance the airbox is designed to keep the excess water out by draining thru the drain holes at the bottom of the airbox.The intake on a Jeep is a horn -like device that is at the upmost part of the hood,along with the vent tubes for the transmission and axles.In other words it's designed to go into deep water,unlike a car.Sometimes we under-estimate the depth and ALOT of river water will get into the horn.The K&N will allow water to hydrolock the engine,the paper will not,that was my point.If I see any K cars trying to cross a three foot river I'll try and dissuade him from doing so.quote:
Originally posted by metroplex:
Water can and will get into your airbox.
Either directly or indirectly as moisture.
Simply stating that an airbox always runs dry is ignorant.
If the air intake is high right under the hood panel,then it will suck in moisture from humid air or rain splashes, etc...
If the air intake is in the wheel well, then it will suck in water from flooded areas, tire splashes, etc...
My 88 Dodge aries would suck in lots of water into the engine if you decided to go "off-roading"
I'm talking ALOT of water,like being submerged for a second or two.Under normal circumstances,under normal driving conditions this is not an issue.But where we go the K&N lets in water and hydrolocks the engine,very bad,the paper will just get wet and stall the Jeep.We always carry two paper elementsquote:
Originally posted by Americanflag:
What about resistance to water? I was wondering, if water were to get to the air filter, how bad would that be? And would the K&N resist the water better than paper, because of the oil? Wouldn't the paper be more easily ruined? And wouldn't moisture in the air eventually damage the paper filter?
Water WILL get through the paper element if enough water is present.
I went through a "river" in the K-car and the next morning my engine was frozen (water froze up).
Turns out the paper element was totally soaked and about a quart of water went into the engine. Air filter sealed properly but it still went in.
I went through a "river" in the K-car and the next morning my engine was frozen (water froze up).
Turns out the paper element was totally soaked and about a quart of water went into the engine. Air filter sealed properly but it still went in.
Too bad for your K car.The airbox on our Jeeps are deep at the bottom,don't know about a K car,and the bottom of the paper OEM filter on a Jeep has an inch of foam on it also...may-be this (the inch of foam) was the deciding factor in the K&N and OEM water logged scenario..anyways thats why we run OEM on our Jeeps.I have a link you can click to if you want a snorkel for your K car...they look cool on Jeeps...but the K car might look a little funky
- Status
Similar threads
- Question
