Just filed a glass claim

[VWRand]

This is why I insist only on TriVal (Pilkington).

We have the evil terrible Fuyao glass manufacturer not far away and I’ve had two of those, never again.

I worked in QC for Pilkington for 18 years. Only left when 2009 recession hit and they closed the plant I worked at for good. The Fuyao plant near Dayton is first rate IMO, and as you might expect, I am pretty critical of auto glass. I have had Fuyao windshields in a couple cars (one very recent) and my experiences were much different than yours.

 

[VWRand]

Make sure you get OEM glass not some thinner chinese import knockoff.

What makes you think it is thinner? The float glass is only made in standard specification thicknesses. I suppose it is possible they ran on the lower side of tolerance, but the next batch could be on the other side.

By the way, do you know why the OEM glass supplier was selected ? They were most likely the low bidder. The aftermarket supplier also likely put in a bid for the OEM contract and didn't get it.

I worked for Pilkington for nearly 20 years in QC and of course would never use anything else. I left in 2009, so no longer have a benefit of employee discounts. One time afterwards when I needed a windshield, I had a choice of PGW or Fuyao. Do I choose buying Chinese made glass from an American company, or American made glass from a Chinese company ? Hmm....

Knowing that the Fuyao plant in Dayton is the newest glass manufacturing plant around and that they are an OEM supplier to many new cars (BMW for example), I chose Fuyao. Just got one in my Arteon a few weeks ago and it appears to be very good quality. YMMV

 

[CKN]

I worked in QC for Pilkington for 18 years. Only left when 2009 recession hit and they closed the plant I worked at for good. The Fuyao plant near Dayton is first rate IMO, and as you might expect, I am pretty critical of auto glass. I have had Fuyao windshields in a couple cars (one very recent) and my experiences were much different than yours.

Someone who actually knows what he is talking about.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. And not bloviating.

 

[goblin]

I got one crack on the Santa Fe, drove like this, then got a huge rock that blasted it on the black part (good it didn't hit the frame). Got that replaced with a original Hyundai windshield because it turned out Safelite didn't have a replacement so Geico covered Original Hyundai for free.

Then I got a chip on the new one, which Safelite fixed - it loocked ugly, I thought they'd fill it to invisible, but all they did was stop if from spreading.
Then I got another crack that spread to a long, long one in three days.

Safelite this time replaced it with a Fuyao, which I didn't know existed for my model (they probably released it since I broke the first one), and I was very very upset because snob.

Well. knock on wood but the Fuyao is so far holding, and it doesn't seem to want to crack every time a sparrow farts less than a mile away. I even got an impact at the very same place where the last one got hit (exact same location on the road, at this point I feel it's some lowlife with a pellet gun or something), it made the exact same sound, and it's holding.

So I don't know if it's better than the original but it's absolutely not worse.

As for Safelite, they have been absolutely STELLAR both times (different locations) be it as speed, quality or service. Maybe it matters that I live in large metro areas where all sorts of cars are driven.
A friend got their (very ugly) expensive BMW iX' windshield replaced at home (car was a few months old), and Safelite did a stellar job as well. In all these cases - with calibration and all.

 

[4WD]

Little sympathy here. Annual or biannual replacements are normal. Can't get glass insurance here under most policies.

View attachment 270264

Do they allow this stuff?

https://www.getexoshield.com/blog/protection-options-for-windshield-cracks

 

[Owen Lucas]

What makes you think it is thinner? The float glass is only made in standard specification thicknesses. I suppose it is possible they ran on the lower side of tolerance, but the next batch could be on the other side.

By the way, do you know why the OEM glass supplier was selected ? They were most likely the low bidder. The aftermarket supplier also likely put in a bid for the OEM contract and didn't get it.

I worked for Pilkington for nearly 20 years in QC and of course would never use anything else. I left in 2009, so no longer have a benefit of employee discounts. One time afterwards when I needed a windshield, I had a choice of PGW or Fuyao. Do I choose buying Chinese made glass from an American company, or American made glass from a Chinese company ? Hmm....

Knowing that the Fuyao plant in Dayton is the newest glass manufacturing plant around and that they are an OEM supplier to many new cars (BMW for example), I chose Fuyao. Just got one in my Arteon a few weeks ago and it appears to be very good quality. YMMV

In my experience as an insurance adjuster and inspecting 1000's of repaired vehicles, only the chinese glass had complaints. They were occasional but you can see waves in the glass especially when looking parallel with the glass. I've never had a comeback for OE glass. I don't remember what brands the failed glass were but they were usually the lowest bidder stuff. I've never measured it but have been told by the glass installers it's crap and thinner. What do they care, they get to do the job twice lol.

I'd go for OE glass, doesn't matter who makes it, the engineering and QC is what I am after. I don't know if some import knockoff glass will be ADAS compliant or have the right laminate taper and reflective coating for head up displays. That's why I always push for OEM, especially on new vehicles.

 

[SemiSub]

My original factory glass in my ‘21 Tundra was from Vitro, and the replacement from Fuyao and I have experienced no ill effects or lesser quality. I found a highly rated mobile installer who was far and away better priced than my other quotes that also included Safelite - who wouldn’t even disclose what glass manufacturer would be used. I still get emails for appointment reminders from Safelite that I never even agreed to.

Another tip the installer shared with me that may be unpopular here is that in most cases the camera doesn’t need to be recalibrated. Said that in his experience it was less than 5% that needed it and was upfront that additional cost would then be involved if it was needed. Well, in my case, he was correct and all driver-assisted functions worked correctly after the windshield install. Makes me wonder how many installers pad their profits with work they may not even perform.

 

[VWRand]

In my experience as an insurance adjuster and inspecting 1000's of repaired vehicles, only the chinese glass had complaints. They were occasional but you can see waves in the glass especially when looking parallel with the glass. I've never had a comeback for OE glass. I don't remember what brands the failed glass were but they were usually the lowest bidder stuff. I've never measured it but have been told by the glass installers it's crap and thinner. What do they care, they get to do the job twice lol.

I'd go for OE glass, doesn't matter who makes it, the engineering and QC is what I am after. I don't know if some import knockoff glass will be ADAS compliant or have the right laminate taper and reflective coating for head up displays. That's why I always push for OEM, especially on new vehicles.

You didn't understand my post. The same plant with the same employees and engineers makes both OE and aftermarket glass for a variety of cars using the same processes. According to their website, Fuyao supplies OEM glass for GM, Ford, Honda, BMW, and Bentley. As far as the part about being the lowest bidder getting the business is true, especially for OEM glass. One would have to believe that if someone like Pilkington made the OEM glass, it is therefore by definition the best, however when the same raw materials, process and QC is used to make an aftermarket windshield because they didn't win the OE business due to being a higher bid, it is automatically suspect. Did the employees just decide to not do their jobs because they knew it wasn't OEM?

There are 3 characteristics involved in a piece of glass. 1) Size and Shape meets dimensional specifications, 2) Optics and paint areas need to be right along with other cosmetics, 3) Passes DOT requirements and FMVSS 205 with periodic testing. All of these are controlled in the manufacturing process. I would be happy to explain the manufacturing process if anyone is interested. Now, the OEM manufacturer does have access to the CAD data for the size and shape, while aftermarket will purchase multiple pieces of OEM glass and scan them to develop the CAD files, but those differences IMO aren't all that significant given that the amount of variation in the body from car to car is multiple times what you would ever see from the glass.

I'm not a big fan of supporting the Chinese government either, but what one is more Chinese; a) an American company manufacturing glass in China (PGW) or b) a Chinese company manufacturing glass in Ohio (Fuyao) ? That was the exact dilemma I faced the last time I needed one. I chose option "B"

I enjoyed working at Pilkington for the 18 years I was there in QC

 

[goblin]

Can't recommend the "American Factory" movie enough. If a bit old now.

 

[Owen Lucas]

You didn't understand my post. The same plant with the same employees and engineers makes both OE and aftermarket glass for a variety of cars using the same processes. According to their website, Fuyao supplies OEM glass for GM, Ford, Honda, BMW, and Bentley. As far as the part about being the lowest bidder getting the business is true, especially for OEM glass. One would have to believe that if someone like Pilkington made the OEM glass, it is therefore by definition the best, however when the same raw materials, process and QC is used to make an aftermarket windshield because they didn't win the OE business due to being a higher bid, it is automatically suspect. Did the employees just decide to not do their jobs because they knew it wasn't OEM?

I'm not a big fan of supporting the Chinese government either, but what one is more Chinese; a) an American company manufacturing glass in China (PGW) or b) a Chinese company manufacturing glass in Ohio (Fuyao) ? That was the exact dilemma I faced the last time I needed one. I chose option "B"

What I was told is that the glass that was labeled aftermarket, in US plants, was glass that failed QC for OE standards. Definitely still better than the really cheap stuff from foreign plants.

If there is a Chinese owned factory in the US making glass to OE standards that’s great, I’d get OE glass from them, but I'd avoid their non-oe for a new vehicle.

But there is another category where super cheap glass is shipped in from abroad. I’ve seen it with my own eyes the waviness and lensing was obvious under certain angles. We had customers complain and had to get OE glass to fix it. The more glass you put in, the higher chance of scratching the A-Pillar and causing damage, it's annoying to have it done multiple times.

Customers who’d complain about AM glass, before the ADAS days, we’d make them feel better if we knew it was Pilkington and gave them the “this is who makes OEM glass” spiel. It worked most of the time.

Aftermarket glass can’t use the OE logo and there is a question of warranty issues or if ADAS failed in the future and you go to the dealer they can say you need a windshield, sorry, OEM requirement. I’d rather get it done right the 1st time on a modern car. For my 20 year old Toyota? I’ll take some AM glass, probably can’t get OE by now anyway.

 

[VWRand]

What I was told is that the glass that was labeled aftermarket, in US plants, was glass that failed QC for OE standards. Definitely still better than the really cheap stuff from foreign plants.

How?, the monogram (logo) would be different. They can't be removed and rebranded. First off that would only apply to aftermarket glass made by the same manufacturer of that same OE glass. Even in that case, once the auto manufacturer insisted on having their own branded monogram, that possibility went away years ago. Due to the monogram, once it is manufactured it can't be downgraded from OE to aftermarket.

FYI, I worked in one Pilkington manufacturing plant and visited most all of them in the US at least once in my 18 year old career. That includes a float plant, multiple temped glass plants , value added plants and windshield plants. It is a fascinating process going from from sand to finished part.

If there is a Chinese owned factory in the US making glass to OE standards that’s great, I’d get OE glass from them, but I'd avoid their non-oe for a new vehicle.

See that would be my preference for aftermarket glass, same exact part made using OEM tooling with identical processes on the same manufacturing lines as OE, with the only difference being the logo. All they would do is swap out the silk screen and keep running.

How would you buy OE glass direct from the supplier anyway? You would have to go through a dealer selling service parts and I've never bought a genuine OE part that stated who the supplier was. You wouldn't know until you received it and looked at the logo.

Of course, since I've never claimed a piece of glass on my insurance as the cost is close to my deductible anyway, I tend to shy away from paying a lot extra to have the manufacture's logo on the same identical part.

But there is another category where super cheap glass is shipped in from abroad. I’ve seen it with my own eyes the waviness and lensing was obvious under certain angles. We had customers complain and had to get OE glass to fix it. The more glass you put in, the higher chance of scratching the A-Pillar and causing damage, it's annoying to have it done multiple times.

I wouldn't buy a lot of cheap auto parts made overseas with a name I never heard of either. yet insurance companies are the ones that dictate their use in many cases. Anyone getting a windshield replaced from a glass installer usually doesn't have a choice of brands; they have what their distributor sells.

Customers who’d complain about AM glass, before the ADAS days, we’d make them feel better if we knew it was Pilkington and gave them the “this is who makes OEM glass” spiel. It worked most of the time.

If it was a General Motors product that would be a true statement. When I worked for them they had over 50% of GM business in NA and had been supplying them for over 75 years. In the 30's through the late 60's they had 99% of it.

Aftermarket glass can’t use the OE logo and there is a question of warranty issues or if ADAS failed in the future and you go to the dealer they can say you need a windshield, sorry, OEM requirement. I’d rather get it done right the 1st time on a modern car. For my 20 year old Toyota? I’ll take some AM glass, probably can’t get OE by now anyway.

If I had an issue with ADAS systems that caused a crash due to a substandard part put in my car by an insurance company, warranty would be the least of my concerns compared to a product liability lawsuit.

 

[Owen Lucas]

How?, the monogram (logo) would be different. They can't be removed and rebranded. First off that would only apply to aftermarket glass made by the same manufacturer of that same OE glass. Even in that case, once the auto manufacturer insisted on having their own branded monogram, that possibility went away years ago. Due to the monogram, once it is manufactured it can't be downgraded from OE to aftermarket.

FYI, I worked in one Pilkington manufacturing plant and visited most all of them in the US at least once in my 18 year old career. That includes a float plant, multiple temped glass plants , value added plants and windshield plants. It is a fascinating process going from from sand to finished part.

I'm going off what the glass techs told me and my experience / training in the collision industry. It would be logical to assume that before the glass has its stippling / black trim and logo applied, that it would be QC'd. With your experience, is this how the glass is handled and is glass that is still useable but not 100% perfect relabeled as the factory brand and not OE?

How would you buy OE glass direct from the supplier anyway? You would have to go through a dealer selling service parts and I've never bought a genuine OE part that stated who the supplier was. You wouldn't know until you received it and looked at the logo.

For some makes we bought glass from the dealer, and their parts guy brought it to the shop. Other times, the glass installer purchased it. Where they got it, IDK, but maybe their supplier buys bulk glass from a large dealer and resells it?

I wouldn't buy a lot of cheap auto parts made overseas with a name I never heard of either. yet insurance companies are the ones that dictate their use in many cases. Anyone getting a windshield replaced from a glass installer usually doesn't have a choice of brands; they have what their distributor sells.

Very true in the collision industry, so many knock offs of fenders, bumpers, almost everything now.

If I had an issue with ADAS systems that caused a crash due to a substandard part put in my car by an insurance company, warranty would be the least of my concerns compared to a product liability lawsuit.

There are pending lawsuits about ADAS and AM part usage right now in the collision industry. I foresee OE glass becoming mandatory and ADAS being handled more carefully by the ins cos due to liability. It's a tough pill for them to swallow because re-cals are costing up to $6k now or more on some luxury vehicles.

 

[VWRand]

Glass Manufacturing process (short version) Be careful what you ask for lol

Glass manufacturing is divided between float and fab plants. Float plants make the flat sheet glass out of sand and other raw materials, and can be used for cars, windows, etc. . The float process is amazing as the sheet glass is made by floating molten glass on a bed of molten tin. Pilkington actually invented that process in the 30's and it is still how all glass is made. The glass keeps coming out continuously 24/7. Any changes in thickness or composition mean that everything in transition is scrapped. The fab plants process the sheet glass into finished parts and is generally located in a separate location

The fab plants take the sheets, cut them to size and then cut out the desired shape as a developed flat blank. Any defects coming from the float plant would just be rejected, returned and then scrapped. It would make no sense to put a lot of processing time and labor into it.

The piece then has the upper edges ground and is moved for the silk screen process to apply the logo and black paint or the silver defroster grid if a backlite. So to answer your question the logo is applied very early during the process. After that it travels down a conveyor through the furnace at 1000 deg F. The conveyor has a succession of shaped rollers that start to form a semblance of a shape which is intended to give it a head start before it enters the press tooling. The speed, temperature and roller design are important and controlled.

The piece then enters the press tooling which stamps it into shape. The pressing ring has probes all over the periphery and surface to check the shape 100% on every piece. If any of them don’t meet tolerance, a robot automatically picks up the piece and moves it to a reject hopper. After it leaves the press tool, if a tempered part , like door glass or backlite, it is then blasted with jets of cold air to lock in the stresses. This entire operation is quite similar to stamping sheet metal and heat treat quenching. If you look at a backlite in car position with polarized sunglasses, you can see all the circles corresponding to each one of the blasting jets

A laminated part like a windshield skips the air blasting step, and is set aside with its matching half. The pieces are similar but not identical, so there is a difference between the inner and outer plies. The vinyl interlayer is inserted between the two plies and they are loaded into an autoclave that supplies both heat and pressure to fuse them together.

Some tempered door glass is also made that way with a vinyl interlayer between two halves for road noise reduction. On those, you can easily tell by rolling it partway down and looking at the edge.

I will say when I first started, all the glass had the same monogram (logo) regardless of OEM or aftermarket. The practice you refer to was possible, but when the auto manufacturers went to their own branded logos, it ceased to be an option. IIRC, that was around the mid to late 90's.

When I worked there, we thought that Chinese glass wasn't a threat due to the cost of shipping. Clearly that turned out to be wrong. I haven't worked in the industry since 2009, but will always have it in my heart. I worked for many years on new model launches as the quality expert, so it was fun seeing new cars a year before they were launched. Can't walk up to a car show without looking at monograms. The company I worked for was Libbey Owens Ford, but it was acquired by Pilkington very shortly after I hired in. Founded by Edward Ford (no relation to Henry) and was General Motors sole supplier for decades. One of my pet peeves; when I hear the term rear windshield instead of backlite. lol

 

[Owen Lucas]

Very interesting! Must have been fun when you worked there. I'll have to try the black light polarized filter trick one day.

a robot automatically picks up the piece and moves it to a reject hopper

This is the part where I was told these rejects go to get relabeled as another more inferior glass brand. But with your factories sequence, this wouldn't be possible. Maybe it's different in other factories, who knows. Why waste a glass when it's 90% fine vs scrapping the whole thing?

 

[goblin]

...Why waste a glass when it's 90% fine vs scrapping the whole thing?

Windshields play an essential role in chassis stiffening since at least the 80's. I doubt anyone will play around with this. They'd simply crack from internal or external stress in no time. Not sure who would risk that.

 

[walterjay]

I have used Safelite for three repairs and have always been happy. Two were for large Sprinter windshields.

 

[VWRand]

Very interesting! Must have been fun when you worked there. I'll have to try the black light polarized filter trick one day.


This is the part where I was told these rejects go to get relabeled as another more inferior glass brand. But with your factories sequence, this wouldn't be possible. Maybe it's different in other factories, who knows. Why waste a glass when it's 90% fine vs scrapping the whole thing?

Dont need a black light, just a pair of polarized sunglasses.

It may not fit properly. The risk of getting a customer complaint is not worth the value gained. Most of the rejects occurred during the set up and getting the process dialed in. Once stable, there really aren't any rejects unless there is an anomaly. A lot of the cosmetic issues are very subjective. Things like light scratches are OK as long as they aren't too long, too deep, or there are too many. The value of the glass isn't worth spending 10 minutes on each piece measuring a scratch, so you would have to make a decision on whether it was objectionable or not. The other issue was that every time you pull one out to inspect it, you run the risk or creating the same damge you are looking for.

I left in 2009, so not thinking the processes are less automated than they were back then.

When I had to go out in the field to review potential issues at assembly plants it could be stressful. The car assembly plants don't give you the benefit of the doubt and would love to be able to blame a supplier. That being said, most of the time they understood that there was a ton more variation in spot welding several pieces of metal to form a car roof than could ever be in my one part. Usually, they just wanted credit for making you fly out there, see the problem, and provide dimensional data showing you were good. One GM plant had me mark up a liftgate with stickers showing dimensional data every inch around the periphery. It took me a few hours to get it done. A few months later they wanted another one; sigh. I asked why and they told me they used it as a master to prove that the body opening was wrong. The body department would send someone out to find it and destroy it, so it couldn't be used against them. That's why they needed another one. Good times!

Now periodic visits to look at accumulated rejects were a different story. Most would be things like chips or scratches where it was impossible to determine who did it, them or us. If I could, instead of arguing back and forth on 20 pieces or so, I would suggest we just each accept half and call it a day. Every now and then you would see something that just made you shake your head. A whole rack of windshields that clearly had every single piece speared by a fork truck. They tried saying they came in like that, but you had to hold firm. Customer isn't always right.

 

[KrisZ]

Reading the manufacture process of glass, thanks @VWRand for the insights which are very interesting, there isn’t really much variation as far as surface waviness, glass thickness or optics because they are made in big panels, which are then cut into shapes. And I presume those are made by batches. If so, entire batches would have to be re-directed to make lesser quality glass.

Products that are made in huge numbers, cannot have entire batches being either directed to OEMs or aftermarket simply on quality basis because that would mean the manufacturer could not predict the OEM production output, which has to strictly match the manufacturer demand with very little room for error. They simply cannot afford such variation in quality.

I think most of the poor glass replacements could be forgeries, simply masquerading as reputable aftermarket products.

 

[Owen Lucas]

Now periodic visits to look at accumulated rejects were a different story. Most would be things like chips or scratches where it was impossible to determine who did it, them or us. If I could, instead of arguing back and forth on 20 pieces or so, I would suggest we just each accept half and call it a day. Every now and then you would see something that just made you shake your head. A whole rack of windshields that clearly had every single piece speared by a fork truck. They tried saying they came in like that, but you had to hold firm. Customer isn't always right.

I've seen a How-It's-Made video where an auto seat factory takes pictures of each seat in their packaging department before wrapping it and shipping it. Nothing like having photographic proof. Probably much harder to do with windshields, unless you are looking for forklift damage!

 

[Owen Lucas]

I think most of the poor glass replacements could be forgeries, simply masquerading as reputable aftermarket products.

There is a wide variety. You can have your flea market quality to the higher end aftermarket or name brands before you get to OE.