Is this whats wrong with BMW?

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
None of my current BMWs have a warranty; I'm not terribly worried as they aren't anywhere near as complex as the Fxx cars. That said, what has turned me off BMW(after32 years of continuous ownership) is the shameless pandering to the poseurs, badge wh*res, and other assorted idiots who would buy/lease a "Beemer"[sic] even if it had the driving dynamics of a 1979 Chevette.
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...

Indeed. Not to mention you can't get proper steering feel even if you DO shell out.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: MCompact
None of my current BMWs have a warranty; I'm not terribly worried as they aren't anywhere near as complex as the Fxx cars. That said, what has turned me off BMW(after32 years of continuous ownership) is the shameless pandering to the poseurs, badge wh*res, and other assorted idiots who would buy/lease a "Beemer"[sic] even if it had the driving dynamics of a 1979 Chevette.
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...

Indeed. Not to mention you can't get proper steering feel even if you DO shell out.


For the enthusiast, i completely agree. But you really can't blame BMW for taking this road if the 'poseurs' inflate the bottom line.

 

[BTW]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BTW
I've said it before and I'll repeat it here...

I would NEVER own a modern BMW out of warranty

And the same can be applied to other premium German makes, I'm afraid.



100% agreed

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: MCompact
None of my current BMWs have a warranty; I'm not terribly worried as they aren't anywhere near as complex as the Fxx cars. That said, what has turned me off BMW(after32 years of continuous ownership) is the shameless pandering to the poseurs, badge wh*res, and other assorted idiots who would buy/lease a "Beemer"[sic] even if it had the driving dynamics of a 1979 Chevette.
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...

Indeed. Not to mention you can't get proper steering feel even if you DO shell out.


True; and I've been spoiled by my 2002 and Club Sport. The steering of my 1995 3er is almost telepathic. Today's typical BMW operator("driver" is far to generous a term) could not care less; he/she is concerned with the number of envious glaces the car attracts and how well the car telegraphs his/her presumed disposable income.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: MCompact
None of my current BMWs have a warranty; I'm not terribly worried as they aren't anywhere near as complex as the Fxx cars. That said, what has turned me off BMW(after32 years of continuous ownership) is the shameless pandering to the poseurs, badge wh*res, and other assorted idiots who would buy/lease a "Beemer"[sic] even if it had the driving dynamics of a 1979 Chevette.
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...

Indeed. Not to mention you can't get proper steering feel even if you DO shell out.


For the enthusiast, i completely agree. But you really can't blame BMW for taking this road if the 'poseurs' inflate the bottom line.

As I said in response to QP earlier, I totally agree -- except for one thing: if they commoditize their cars, they'll lose the strength of their brand.

If nothing else, trying to play a game that Mercedes has been winning for decades just seems like a bad gamble.

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Having said that BMW's engines tend to be more fragile than Mercedes, their TT's V8's have no such issues.

Just had a thought about this. I know this BMW engine runs a "hot V", i.e. turbos in the valley between the banks. Does Mercedes do the same? If not, that might explain the difference -- I'd imagine there'd be less risk of heat soak if the turbos were separated from each other, and thus less need to run the cooling system after shutdown.


Audi's new 4.0t twin turbo V8 has the turbos in the vee and I have not heard of this problem affecting them at all, so it can be done. Heck, even my lowly 2003 2.7t twin turbo has an after run pump to cool the turbos when the ECU thinks it's needed, so it's not new tech.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

As I said in response to QP earlier, I totally agree -- except for one thing: if they commoditize their cars, they'll lose the strength of their brand.

If nothing else, trying to play a game that Mercedes has been winning for decades just seems like a bad gamble.


I've been looking at cars for a while and in the process I've talked with several long time BMW CCA members. At least two have bought Cadillacs- one has a CTS-V and the other a CTS Vsport. The Vsport owner's opinion of new BMWs: "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building." A couple of others have gone with Boxsters, Caymans, or S4s. And I know of at least five CCA Members who plan to buy the new GT350 when it rolls out. One day the "wearers" and poseurs will move on to the Next Cool Thing and Munich will scramble to find their traditional loyal buyers and find them missing as well. And I will be among them...

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
One day the "wearers" and poseurs will move on to the Next Cool Thing and Munich will scramble to find their traditional loyal buyers and find them missing as well.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Well put.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Having said that BMW's engines tend to be more fragile than Mercedes, their TT's V8's have no such issues.

Just had a thought about this. I know this BMW engine runs a "hot V", i.e. turbos in the valley between the banks. Does Mercedes do the same? If not, that might explain the difference -- I'd imagine there'd be less risk of heat soak if the turbos were separated from each other, and thus less need to run the cooling system after shutdown.


Audi's new 4.0t twin turbo V8 has the turbos in the vee and I have not heard of this problem affecting them at all, so it can be done. Heck, even my lowly 2003 2.7t twin turbo has an after run pump to cool the turbos when the ECU thinks it's needed, so it's not new tech.

True. Though, to be fair, we haven't yet seen whether the 4.0TFSI will last as long as the N63. If it does, then yes, we'll be able to say that Audi has done it better.

Regarding the 2003 2.7T, a few counterpoints. It's MUCH smaller and less powerful than the N63, so its electrical and cooling demands are much lower. Plus, after-run cooling or no, doesn't it still cook stock turbos?

 

[ramammoth]

I don't know what you're trying to say about German car engineering mindset, but if you wave enough money in front of anyone, there will be no engineering mindset.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

As I said in response to QP earlier, I totally agree -- except for one thing: if they commoditize their cars, they'll lose the strength of their brand.

If nothing else, trying to play a game that Mercedes has been winning for decades just seems like a bad gamble.


I've been looking at cars for a while and in the process I've talked with several long time BMW CCA members. At least two have bought Cadillacs- one has a CTS-V and the other a CTS Vsport. The Vsport owner's opinion of new BMWs: "The Ultimate Driving Machine has left the building." A couple of others have gone with Boxsters, Caymans, or S4s. And I know of at least five CCA Members who plan to buy the new GT350 when it rolls out. One day the "wearers" and poseurs will move on to the Next Cool Thing and Munich will scramble to find their traditional loyal buyers and find them missing as well. And I will be among them...


Well put indeed...

 

[stchman]

Interesting article.

So BMWs do not have alternators capable of charging the battery.

This whole cruising vs. coasting thing is hilarious. So the driver is supposed to accelerate and then let off the gas for the battery to charge?

I agree with what people say that BMWs are not cars to own when the warranty is up.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: stchman
Interesting article.

So BMWs do not have alternators capable of charging the battery.

Try re-reading the article.

 

[gregoron]

OK, my questions regarding this battery issue are:

1. Would cooling down the engine and turbos prior to shutting it off allow less current draw from the batteries? Aren't these components temperature dependent? The cooler the component is, the less you have to cool it down and less battery drain after engine is off. Some turbocharged engine's owner's manuals say to let the car cool down a couple of minutes after a hard drive prior to shutting down engine anyways.

2. Would putting vents on the hood allow for the turbos to cool down faster?

Just theories open to opinions.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: gregoron
Some turbocharged engine's owner's manuals say to let the car cool down a couple of minutes after a hard drive prior to shutting down engine anyways.


And guess what that would do to your EPA claimed MPG figures.

 

[gregoron]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Some turbocharged engine's owner's manuals say to let the car cool down a couple of minutes after a hard drive prior to shutting down engine anyways.


And guess what that would do to your EPA claimed MPG figures.


Not everyone is interested in EPA mileage figures. Really, one buys a V8 BMW and the last thing they're thinking about is MPG.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: gregoron
Not everyone is interested in EPA mileage figures. Really, one buys a V8 BMW and the last thing they're thinking about is MPG.

Did you read the article?

EPA is certainly interested in ensuring that the numbers claimed by the manufacturer are accurate.

 

[gregoron]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Not everyone is interested in EPA mileage figures. Really, one buys a V8 BMW and the last thing they're thinking about is MPG.

Did you read the article?

EPA is certainly interested in ensuring that the numbers claimed by the manufacturer are accurate.



Ok, but you can cool down your engine without having it on idle on your driveway for two minutes also. You can just go easy on the gas while driving home after a hard drive. My question is, would a cooler engine lessen the impact on the batteries?

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...

This is ridiculous, LSD should be standard equipment in a performance car such as BMW M sport.

Everything in Honda S2000 with MSRP less than $35k was standard, including LSD and HID. Only 2 possible dealer options were aluminum hardtop and 2 pieces floor mat. Yes, there are more stupid dealer options such as aftermarket wheels, paint sealant ...

Back to early 2000's many BMW, Audi, MB ... models had HID as $1k(or more) option even for models that cost more than $50-60k, and I believe they still have optional HID for some mid-price models.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Munich's attitude towards those of us who want an engaging driving experience is basically, "Want a BMW that actually drives like a BMW? It's gonna cost you!"
And don't get me started on how BMW makes you pay @$3,000 extra in order to get a true LSD on an M235i- which already costs north of $44,000.
Yet another reason why this 33 year member of BMW CCA is almost certainly buying a new Mustang GT or STI rather than said M235i...

This is ridiculous, LSD should be standard equipment in a performance car such as BMW M sport.

Everything in Honda S2000 with MSRP less than $35k was standard, including LSD and HID. Only 2 possible dealer options were aluminum hardtop and 2 pieces floor mat. Yes, there are more stupid dealer options such as aftermarket wheels, paint sealant ...

Back to early 2000's many BMW, Audi, MB ... models had HID as $1k(or more) option even for models that cost more than $50-60k, and I believe they still have optional HID for some mid-price models.


To be fair, the S2000 was basically Honda's flagship car, regardless of price. The M5 (and I believe the M3 and Z8 where applicable) came with factory auto-levelling HID's, Navigation, LSD, rain-sensing wipers, stability control, climate control, speed-sensitive volume, factory DSP, parking sensors, 12 airbags (IIRC)....etc. Optional equipment was extended leather, front parking sensors, the ski bag passthrough and a few other "goodies".

The problem when comparing Honda to BMW is that BMW sells cars that are far outside the range of price that Honda sells cars. Their model line-up, like Honda's, is structured from base to top-end, but the top-end for BMW is significantly more money, so you have to look at the relativity of the scale to draw the sort of comparison you are attempting to make here.

This same situation applies with Mercedes who makes many models that are north of 100,000 dollars. Just the way it is.