A friend told me about this website: http://www.auto-engineers.com . Supposedley auto engineers pushing Amsoil. One of their claims is: "Additionally, the test machine was measuring EXTREME PRESSURE. Motor oils do not have extreme pressure additives blended in like gear lubes do nor do they need extreme pressure additives." This makes me question their integrity. Any thoughts on what they say?
Is this stuff beleivable?
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Read the Lubrication Engineering article;"Measurement of Oil -Film pressure in Engine bearings using a Thin Film Sensor." May 2002 edition Vol 58 No.5.
The authors state; "main bearing oil pressure can exceed 5000 PSI. Connecting Rod bearings can exceed 22,000 PSI. These are hydrodynamic pressures. What if that hydrodynamic wedge breaks or moves in to a mixed situation? You'd better have some for of boundary layer lube backup.
Read the article and see what you think.
This article appeared in tribology transactions January 2002 also.
The authors state; "main bearing oil pressure can exceed 5000 PSI. Connecting Rod bearings can exceed 22,000 PSI. These are hydrodynamic pressures. What if that hydrodynamic wedge breaks or moves in to a mixed situation? You'd better have some for of boundary layer lube backup.
Read the article and see what you think.
This article appeared in tribology transactions January 2002 also.
MolaKule
Staff member
They sure like pushing their sheepskin, wow am I impressed. Golly, I'd hate to see what would happen if they had a doctorate?
"Special Notice: We are currently in the process of testing the new
Mobil Supersyn and will have comparison data out just as soon as
possible. Initial indications show it is still a semi-synthetic oil
formulated to meet the new SL ratings with reduced phousporus
levels. It does not compare to AMSOIL's extended drain interval
25,000 mile/1-year or 35,000 mile/1-year oil (0W-30). "
BS (and not the degreed kind). If they think the M1 is GroupIII oil, then they should be smart enought to take it to university and have an NMR done to prove it. Gimme a break!
"AMSOIL is proven to be the best! In fact up until about 10-15 years ago many
of these manufacturers never even had a synthetic (except Mobil1). They were too
busy trying to debunk the benefits of synthetics to the average consumer! "
Some of this is true. Many of the Big four at the time spent more time trying to debunk the advantages of synthetics and keep the dino flowing for 3k oil changes.
But the rest of the list show thier's and Amsoil's hypocracy. They would have been smart to remove the Mobil/Castrol info. With Amsoil jumping onto the GIII=synthetic wagon, this can only be called an "apalling display of ignorance and hypocracy."
"Special Notice: We are currently in the process of testing the new
Mobil Supersyn and will have comparison data out just as soon as
possible. Initial indications show it is still a semi-synthetic oil
formulated to meet the new SL ratings with reduced phousporus
levels. It does not compare to AMSOIL's extended drain interval
25,000 mile/1-year or 35,000 mile/1-year oil (0W-30). "
BS (and not the degreed kind). If they think the M1 is GroupIII oil, then they should be smart enought to take it to university and have an NMR done to prove it. Gimme a break!
"AMSOIL is proven to be the best! In fact up until about 10-15 years ago many
of these manufacturers never even had a synthetic (except Mobil1). They were too
busy trying to debunk the benefits of synthetics to the average consumer! "
Some of this is true. Many of the Big four at the time spent more time trying to debunk the advantages of synthetics and keep the dino flowing for 3k oil changes.
But the rest of the list show thier's and Amsoil's hypocracy. They would have been smart to remove the Mobil/Castrol info. With Amsoil jumping onto the GIII=synthetic wagon, this can only be called an "apalling display of ignorance and hypocracy."
MolaKule,
Guess we need to keep in mind this is coming from an "educated dealer"; not from Amsoil directly. Sure gives the parent company a bad name, even if they "might" have a good product!
Guess we need to keep in mind this is coming from an "educated dealer"; not from Amsoil directly. Sure gives the parent company a bad name, even if they "might" have a good product!
MolaKule
Staff member
"BTW, I bet it wouldn't take much to make a copy of such a degree and stick anyones name on it (just a thought )"
The sheepskin looks legit and I assumed its a four-year university degree. Myself and other of my collegues possess advanced (7-9 year) degrees, but that doesn't mean we know anything about oil!
But there is more to knowledge than "book lernin.'"
The sheepskin looks legit and I assumed its a four-year university degree. Myself and other of my collegues possess advanced (7-9 year) degrees, but that doesn't mean we know anything about oil!
But there is more to knowledge than "book lernin.'"
About a minute and a half into reading it I noticed the misspelled word too.
When they're trying to pull themselves off as THE people who know about oil, they should at least have someone look it over very carefully.
I emailed those guys and asked why they call Mobil1 semi-synthetic, why they cast aspersions on Group III base stocks and don't mention Amsoil XL-7500 (made from G-III), and if they're such hot-shot engineers why they talk so much about meaningless 4-ball tests.
If I get any answer at all I'll drop some money into the next charity change jar I see on a store counter.
Ken
If I get any answer at all I'll drop some money into the next charity change jar I see on a store counter.
Ken
MolaKule
Staff member
"Supposedley auto engineers pushing Amsoil. One of their claims is: "Additionally, the test machine was measuring EXTREME PRESSURE. Motor oils do not have extreme pressure additives blended in like gear lubes do nor do they need extreme pressure additives." This makes me question their integrity. Any thoughts on what they say? "
I agree with the wording regarding "extreme pressure." However, its a matter of usage.
EP or extreme pressure additives are generally accepted as those additives used in gear and transmission oils because of the extreme pressures exerted on gear teeth. (See the thread on interesting articles. regarding TBN#'s). EP's are generally orgnometallic films of elements that include phosphorus, sulfur, and chlorine. Other organometallic compounds may include moly, antimony, and zinc, and certain esters, or all of the above.
Anti-wear (AW) and Friction Modifiers (FM's) additives are generally accepted as terms used for additives in motor oils, to reduce boundary friction. When the hydrodynamic lubrication is present (wedge of oil produced by eccentricities of the bore/journal) the journal and bearing are separated by a thin film of oil. If a high load is applied suddenly, or if the temp rises suddenly, the film may disappear momentarily, and this is when boundary lubrication saves the day. Boundary lubrication most often occurs in camshaft assemblies and the oil control ring of pistons. If your oil pressure were to suddenly drop, and the hydrodynamic film in the journal bearing were to be lost, boundary lubrication is the only "last ditch" effort to save the engine.
Now, ZDDP can be found as an additive for both EP and AW/FM applications, as well as organometallic compounds including moly, antimony, and zinc, and esters. That's why these compounds are often called, "multifunctional" fluids since they may have more than one function.
Unfortunately, the rest of the site is just so much fluff, hype, and advertising.
I agree with the wording regarding "extreme pressure." However, its a matter of usage.
EP or extreme pressure additives are generally accepted as those additives used in gear and transmission oils because of the extreme pressures exerted on gear teeth. (See the thread on interesting articles. regarding TBN#'s). EP's are generally orgnometallic films of elements that include phosphorus, sulfur, and chlorine. Other organometallic compounds may include moly, antimony, and zinc, and certain esters, or all of the above.
Anti-wear (AW) and Friction Modifiers (FM's) additives are generally accepted as terms used for additives in motor oils, to reduce boundary friction. When the hydrodynamic lubrication is present (wedge of oil produced by eccentricities of the bore/journal) the journal and bearing are separated by a thin film of oil. If a high load is applied suddenly, or if the temp rises suddenly, the film may disappear momentarily, and this is when boundary lubrication saves the day. Boundary lubrication most often occurs in camshaft assemblies and the oil control ring of pistons. If your oil pressure were to suddenly drop, and the hydrodynamic film in the journal bearing were to be lost, boundary lubrication is the only "last ditch" effort to save the engine.
Now, ZDDP can be found as an additive for both EP and AW/FM applications, as well as organometallic compounds including moly, antimony, and zinc, and esters. That's why these compounds are often called, "multifunctional" fluids since they may have more than one function.
Unfortunately, the rest of the site is just so much fluff, hype, and advertising.
Normally I'd have to strip out this kind of direct link to an advertising page on a specific product so to protect our sponsors, but in this case, I think this one is very educational and points out how ignorace can really mis-lead people in the wrong direction.
I think this is one of many reasons so many do have such a bad taste in their mouth on amsoil. This is unfortunate as there is some really excellent reps that try to be up front, honest and keeps the BS to a minimum.
BTW, I bet it wouldn't take much to make a copy of such a degree and stick anyones name on it (just a thought
)
[ August 16, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
I think this is one of many reasons so many do have such a bad taste in their mouth on amsoil. This is unfortunate as there is some really excellent reps that try to be up front, honest and keeps the BS to a minimum.
BTW, I bet it wouldn't take much to make a copy of such a degree and stick anyones name on it (just a thought
[ August 16, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Mobil 1 a semi-synthetic?
Mobil 1's official response:
Mobil 1's official response:
They don't know they are stupid though. LOL
From the site: "Fact is, every successful major race car in the world uses synthetics, and about 85% of them use AMSOIL synthetics. We know exactly who these racing teams are but are not permitted to advertise who they are because they have such a large amount of money at stake with their sponsors wanting the public to believe they are using the brand of oil that is is advertised on the car."
What do most successful race drivers really use, such as at Indy, Le Mans, Daytona, Michigan? I cant believe the 85% number. Maybe there was supposed to be a decimal point in it! .85%?
What do most successful race drivers really use, such as at Indy, Le Mans, Daytona, Michigan? I cant believe the 85% number. Maybe there was supposed to be a decimal point in it! .85%?
I honestly have never met anyone who uses Amsoil in anything,Race Boat, Race car,Tow Truck,Moms Station Wagon ect except one guy back in the early 80's. he had his own shop and specialized in working on the Mazda RX7 Rotary's. He had it displayed and sold it to his customers,the Rotarys metered a certain amount of oil depending on throttle position and was drawn from the crankcase straight into the intake manifold.
Can anyone tell me how well the Amsoil available in that time period would burn in a combustion chamber of sorts like the Rotary?
I am not dissing the oil,I honestly don't know anyone who uses it
[ August 17, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
Can anyone tell me how well the Amsoil available in that time period would burn in a combustion chamber of sorts like the Rotary?
I am not dissing the oil,I honestly don't know anyone who uses it
[ August 17, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Dragboat,
Synthetic's haven't come to Okahoma yet?
There was a similar discussion on rotaries at:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000106#000006
Synthetic's haven't come to Okahoma yet?
There was a similar discussion on rotaries at:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000106#000006
I think Amsoil makes a good product and I used to be a dealer to get the oil at a good price (distribution center was 20 miles from my house). I grew weary of the continuing Amsoil PR. When I called the Amsoil Tech Number, I never got reallyy good technical information. The guy is the perfect little "Al Amatuzio" clone that the monthly mag seeks to create. OK..the guy is an engineer who hawks Amzoil. I doubt he is the only engineer on the web who sells lubricants. I wonder if his enginerering degree says " BS in Mechanical and Truck/Automotive Engineering"
O.K., I'm done venting. Like I said-I think Amsoil puts up better wear numbers than Mobil 1 (which I have in my vehichles-for now).
O.K., I'm done venting. Like I said-I think Amsoil puts up better wear numbers than Mobil 1 (which I have in my vehichles-for now).
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