Is this even possible??
- Thread starter Revving2Redline
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Originally Posted by buster
Ok no more speculation. I called Dave at Red Line. The answer is in the 40% range for Redline. This was from him. I told him that I know base oil formulations are proprietary information and whether he would be able to give an approximate range for the amount of esters used in their oils due to internet rumors and sketchy FTIR/Oxidation tests. He said they normally don't give that out but it is in the 40% range. From the horses mouth.
He also said the oxidation number isn't the whole story.
Thanks for your efforts.Makes me feel better knowing I got a quart of ester happiness going in every oci. I always thought the ester percentage was around 20 so if you got it from the man himself thats all I need to know. Did he try to make you a PC and charge you 10$ for 6 months of tech advice? I almost got to meet Dave last summer.
Ok no more speculation. I called Dave at Red Line. The answer is in the 40% range for Redline. This was from him. I told him that I know base oil formulations are proprietary information and whether he would be able to give an approximate range for the amount of esters used in their oils due to internet rumors and sketchy FTIR/Oxidation tests. He said they normally don't give that out but it is in the 40% range. From the horses mouth.
He also said the oxidation number isn't the whole story.
Thanks for your efforts.Makes me feel better knowing I got a quart of ester happiness going in every oci. I always thought the ester percentage was around 20 so if you got it from the man himself thats all I need to know. Did he try to make you a PC and charge you 10$ for 6 months of tech advice? I almost got to meet Dave last summer.
Originally Posted by Marco620
Originally Posted by buster
Ok no more speculation. I called Dave at Red Line. The answer is in the 40% range for Redline. This was from him. I told him that I know base oil formulations are proprietary information and whether he would be able to give an approximate range for the amount of esters used in their oils due to internet rumors and sketchy FTIR/Oxidation tests. He said they normally don't give that out but it is in the 40% range. From the horses mouth.
He also said the oxidation number isn't the whole story.
Thanks for your efforts.Makes me feel better knowing I got a quart of ester happiness going in every oci. I always thought the ester percentage was around 20 so if you got it from the man himself thats all I need to know. Did he try to make you a PC and charge you 10$ for 6 months of tech advice? I almost got to meet Dave last summer.
hahaha no problem. No Dave G. is a nice guy. Red Line doesn't hide much they are as forthcoming as they come IMO. And yes, he did hesitate at first and say they normally don't reveal that but he said in the 40% range. Reason I was asking were due to these rumors. And people want to know at least to some degree what they are paying for. So with RL you're getting what you pay for.
I'm not suggesting Red Line is superior either just because they are using such a high percentage of esters, as there many nuances in formulating oils. It was just to clear this up.
Originally Posted by buster
Ok no more speculation. I called Dave at Red Line. The answer is in the 40% range for Redline. This was from him. I told him that I know base oil formulations are proprietary information and whether he would be able to give an approximate range for the amount of esters used in their oils due to internet rumors and sketchy FTIR/Oxidation tests. He said they normally don't give that out but it is in the 40% range. From the horses mouth.
He also said the oxidation number isn't the whole story.
Thanks for your efforts.Makes me feel better knowing I got a quart of ester happiness going in every oci. I always thought the ester percentage was around 20 so if you got it from the man himself thats all I need to know. Did he try to make you a PC and charge you 10$ for 6 months of tech advice? I almost got to meet Dave last summer.
hahaha no problem. No Dave G. is a nice guy. Red Line doesn't hide much they are as forthcoming as they come IMO. And yes, he did hesitate at first and say they normally don't reveal that but he said in the 40% range. Reason I was asking were due to these rumors. And people want to know at least to some degree what they are paying for. So with RL you're getting what you pay for.
I'm not suggesting Red Line is superior either just because they are using such a high percentage of esters, as there many nuances in formulating oils. It was just to clear this up.
It's a great oil if you have the need for its properties. I squander money every oil change using it or Ravenol in some of my vehicles. I also have some cases of M1 ESP euro 5W30 that I picked up for $5 a quart at NAPA a while back, couldn't pass it up since they were giving it away and that 504/507 spec. covers a lot of sins. I've been using it on some other vehicles that don't have the higher demands of my commuters.
Greetings from Spain.
To me, the manufacturer RedLine seems to me one of the best oil manufacturers currently on the market, since regardless of the exact % of ester that it carries, what is certain is that it carries more than most (all) other manufacturers that I know accompanied by a rich package of additives.
There in the US you are also lucky enough to find it at a very good price, here in Spain (and in general in Europe) it costs around 20€ a US Quart
To me, the manufacturer RedLine seems to me one of the best oil manufacturers currently on the market, since regardless of the exact % of ester that it carries, what is certain is that it carries more than most (all) other manufacturers that I know accompanied by a rich package of additives.
There in the US you are also lucky enough to find it at a very good price, here in Spain (and in general in Europe) it costs around 20€ a US Quart
Originally Posted by Arrechera
Greetings from Spain.
To me, the manufacturer RedLine seems to me one of the best oil manufacturers currently on the market, since regardless of the exact % of ester that it carries, what is certain is that it carries more than most (all) other manufacturers that I know accompanied by a rich package of additives.
There in the US you are also lucky enough to find it at a very good price, here in Spain (and in general in Europe) it costs around 20€ a US Quart
Buen punto. Gracias.
Greetings from Spain.
To me, the manufacturer RedLine seems to me one of the best oil manufacturers currently on the market, since regardless of the exact % of ester that it carries, what is certain is that it carries more than most (all) other manufacturers that I know accompanied by a rich package of additives.
There in the US you are also lucky enough to find it at a very good price, here in Spain (and in general in Europe) it costs around 20€ a US Quart
Buen punto. Gracias.
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by dave1251
Considering how little ester is in Redline I say I'm not surprised by the claims here.
Redline contains significant ester content. Estimates rage up to 20-40% based on oxidation parameters and FTIR. While you can't get an exact amount, you can get a good approximation by using the oxidation number and FTIR.
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/06/full-564-45416-9d151bfe_b26b_4a36_9fdb_2e08438b2ae3.png "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/06/full-564-45417-2e053dc7_e022_4ab9_aa69_dedcd6fa379a.png "[Linked Image]")
Amsoil
![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2020/06/full-564-45418-3a705e7f_71c4_48d1_92a6_1554379738b1.jpeg "[Linked Image]")
No the limitation of the FTIR graph is everything from ester additives to anything with a C=O Bond will be detected. Without GC anything is a guess. We could ask Dave from Redline but he flat out lied for over a decade and said Redline was 100% Diester which simply was not possible. Redline is primarily a PAO product which isn't bad.
It is not primarily a PAO based product. Now you're the one lying. lol. The oxidation parameter gives that away. It has significant ester content. As to how much exactly no one knows. It is certainly more than any other brand I'm aware of. And it wasn't diesters they were using.
Buster if you had a idea what you are talking about I would be offended. Get a clue it's not hard a 8CST Diester has a NOACK less than 2%. Buster explain how a ester base oil would have 4 times higher NOACK.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4925392/noack-and-volativty-again
Let's see it.
Oh wait a 8CST PAO has a NOACK of 8%
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4666333/3
Explain. 18 years you have been here and you still are unable to comprehend it's not possible a 20 grade ester product has a NOACK over 8%.
I will wait for any possible explanation. Go ahead Buster.
Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by dave1251
Considering how little ester is in Redline I say I'm not surprised by the claims here.
Redline contains significant ester content. Estimates rage up to 20-40% based on oxidation parameters and FTIR. While you can't get an exact amount, you can get a good approximation by using the oxidation number and FTIR.
Amsoil
No the limitation of the FTIR graph is everything from ester additives to anything with a C=O Bond will be detected. Without GC anything is a guess. We could ask Dave from Redline but he flat out lied for over a decade and said Redline was 100% Diester which simply was not possible. Redline is primarily a PAO product which isn't bad.
It is not primarily a PAO based product. Now you're the one lying. lol. The oxidation parameter gives that away. It has significant ester content. As to how much exactly no one knows. It is certainly more than any other brand I'm aware of. And it wasn't diesters they were using.
Buster if you had a idea what you are talking about I would be offended. Get a clue it's not hard a 8CST Diester has a NOACK less than 2%. Buster explain how a ester base oil would have 4 times higher NOACK.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4925392/noack-and-volativty-again
Let's see it.
Oh wait a 8CST PAO has a NOACK of 8%
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4666333/3
Explain. 18 years you have been here and you still are unable to comprehend it's not possible a 20 grade ester product has a NOACK over 8%.
I will wait for any possible explanation. Go ahead Buster.
It can't be 40% ester the NOACK and viscosity index values don't match not even close.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4538460/3
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4538460/3
Originally Posted by dave1251
It can't be 40% ester the NOACK and viscosity index values don't match not even close.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4538460/3
Now you're just being ridiculous. That was from Dave at Red Line. Call him and tell him you know the amount then. LOL
There is likely variation among the grades but the words from Dave were they are in the 40% range. I had always assumed at most oils contain 15-25%.
"Maybe I'm missing something here, but the SDS in the link lists the two PAO components as less than 60% and less than 30% respectively. So we really don't know the PAO content except that it is less than 90%. Also this SDS covers all of their viscosity grades, so perhaps only the 0W-20 grade approaches 90% PAO. The rest could be substantially less. We can't draw any conclusions on POE content from this multi-product SDS.
Interesting to note that they are using dodecene based PAO instead of the normal 1-decene based product. The dodecene based PAO has a higher VI, higher flash point, and a lower Noack than standard PAO at an equivalent viscosity, but sacrifices a little low temperature flow. Good choice for an oil aimed at higher operating temperatures, especially when blended with POE.
Tom NJ/VA"
It can't be 40% ester the NOACK and viscosity index values don't match not even close.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4538460/3
Now you're just being ridiculous. That was from Dave at Red Line. Call him and tell him you know the amount then. LOL
There is likely variation among the grades but the words from Dave were they are in the 40% range. I had always assumed at most oils contain 15-25%.
"Maybe I'm missing something here, but the SDS in the link lists the two PAO components as less than 60% and less than 30% respectively. So we really don't know the PAO content except that it is less than 90%. Also this SDS covers all of their viscosity grades, so perhaps only the 0W-20 grade approaches 90% PAO. The rest could be substantially less. We can't draw any conclusions on POE content from this multi-product SDS.
Interesting to note that they are using dodecene based PAO instead of the normal 1-decene based product. The dodecene based PAO has a higher VI, higher flash point, and a lower Noack than standard PAO at an equivalent viscosity, but sacrifices a little low temperature flow. Good choice for an oil aimed at higher operating temperatures, especially when blended with POE.
Tom NJ/VA"
Again, he said they all weren't 40%. He said they generally use esters in the 40% range. Again, from Dave at Red Line. It is likely that not all of their formulations contain 40%, and he may have given a number at the high end of the range. I had always assumed 15-25% is the max range in an oil.
A GC would certainly be the most definitive way to know the exact amount. Regardless, it does contain significant ester content. I have no reason to doubt Dave G.
I'm also aware as I stated before that FTIR/oxidation parameters don't give the exact percentage.
You're going by a SDS which gives ranges.
I guess dave1251 knows more than Dave from Red Line.
A GC would certainly be the most definitive way to know the exact amount. Regardless, it does contain significant ester content. I have no reason to doubt Dave G.
I'm also aware as I stated before that FTIR/oxidation parameters don't give the exact percentage.
You're going by a SDS which gives ranges.
I guess dave1251 knows more than Dave from Red Line.
Once again the percentage of ester in Redline is not a majority. The numbers show it's primarily a PAO or even a group III.
Dave from Redline can not be taken at his word.
"Rather than cutting costs by blending into polyalphaolefin base stock for its motor oil, Red Line Oil only uses superior poly ester-based products..."
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110076
https://web.archive.org/web/20041206173337/http://www.redlineoil.com/why_redline.asp
Once again even at 40% POE which isn't possible it's still not primarily POE
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=106591#Post106591
So buster I'm not the one lying. You may apologize for calling me a liar.
Dave from Redline can not be taken at his word.
"Rather than cutting costs by blending into polyalphaolefin base stock for its motor oil, Red Line Oil only uses superior poly ester-based products..."
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110076
https://web.archive.org/web/20041206173337/http://www.redlineoil.com/why_redline.asp
Once again even at 40% POE which isn't possible it's still not primarily POE
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=106591#Post106591
So buster I'm not the one lying. You may apologize for calling me a liar.
Originally Posted by PimTac
Maybe I'm missing something here but it could be called a majority if for example the base is 40% ester, 30% PAO and 10% Group III. The rest would be additives.
My numbers are examples only and not actual percentages.
That's the way I read it..
Maybe I'm missing something here but it could be called a majority if for example the base is 40% ester, 30% PAO and 10% Group III. The rest would be additives.
My numbers are examples only and not actual percentages.
That's the way I read it..
Originally Posted by dave1251
Buster if you had a idea what you are talking about I would be offended. Get a clue it's not hard a 8CST Diester has a NOACK less than 2%. Buster explain how a ester base oil would have 4 times higher NOACK.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4925392/noack-and-volativty-again
Let's see it.
Oh wait a 8CST PAO has a NOACK of 8%
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4666333/3
Explain. 18 years you have been here and you still are unable to comprehend it's not possible a 20 grade ester product has a NOACK over 8%.
I will wait for any possible explanation. Go ahead Buster.
Originally Posted by dave1251
It can't be 40% ester the NOACK and viscosity index values don't match not even close.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4538460/3
Gentlemen, let's maintain civility please.
buster is a gentleman, and he must be celebrated for getting all this information from all these companies. No one else here has the same connections and communication skills.
There is nothing that contradicts buster here.
You can't make a 0W-20 from an 8 cSt base oil. It would fail the SAE 0W CCS and/or MRV tests. Typically 4 - 6 cSt is used. With the DDI package, 8 cSt becomes 10 cSt or more, which would result in a SAE xW-40 or a SAE xW-50 after you add the VII.
My calculator gives 31 cSt and 5.8 cSt for the base-oil KV40 and KV100, respectively, for Red Line High-Performance 0W-20. Base-oil VI = 135. VII content = 5%. HTFS (base-oil + DDI-package viscosity at 150 °C) = 2.1 cSt, which is fairly typical for a 0W-20. Note that the DDI package adds to both the viscosity and viscosity index of the base oil; so, the actual base oil probably has KV100 = 4-5 cSt and VI ~ 130.
From ExxonMobil spec sheets, SpectraSyn 4 cSt PAO, SpectraSyn 6 cSt PAO, Esterex NP343 4 cSt POE, and Esterex NP541 5 cSt POE, have 14%, 6.4%, 4.6%, and 4.6% Noack, respectively. Their VI are 126, 138, 136, and 130, respectively. The DDI package, typically about 20% of the oil, could have a Noack over 15%.
There is nothing that contradicts the 40% ester information from Dave from Red Line here. A 40/60 POE/PAO mix would result in a Noack around 9-10%. Base-oil VI also checks. Everything is checking perfectly.
Thank you again, buster, for the inside information.
Buster if you had a idea what you are talking about I would be offended. Get a clue it's not hard a 8CST Diester has a NOACK less than 2%. Buster explain how a ester base oil would have 4 times higher NOACK.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4925392/noack-and-volativty-again
Let's see it.
Oh wait a 8CST PAO has a NOACK of 8%
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4666333/3
Explain. 18 years you have been here and you still are unable to comprehend it's not possible a 20 grade ester product has a NOACK over 8%.
I will wait for any possible explanation. Go ahead Buster.
Originally Posted by dave1251
It can't be 40% ester the NOACK and viscosity index values don't match not even close.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4538460/3
Gentlemen, let's maintain civility please.
buster is a gentleman, and he must be celebrated for getting all this information from all these companies. No one else here has the same connections and communication skills.
There is nothing that contradicts buster here.
You can't make a 0W-20 from an 8 cSt base oil. It would fail the SAE 0W CCS and/or MRV tests. Typically 4 - 6 cSt is used. With the DDI package, 8 cSt becomes 10 cSt or more, which would result in a SAE xW-40 or a SAE xW-50 after you add the VII.
My calculator gives 31 cSt and 5.8 cSt for the base-oil KV40 and KV100, respectively, for Red Line High-Performance 0W-20. Base-oil VI = 135. VII content = 5%. HTFS (base-oil + DDI-package viscosity at 150 °C) = 2.1 cSt, which is fairly typical for a 0W-20. Note that the DDI package adds to both the viscosity and viscosity index of the base oil; so, the actual base oil probably has KV100 = 4-5 cSt and VI ~ 130.
From ExxonMobil spec sheets, SpectraSyn 4 cSt PAO, SpectraSyn 6 cSt PAO, Esterex NP343 4 cSt POE, and Esterex NP541 5 cSt POE, have 14%, 6.4%, 4.6%, and 4.6% Noack, respectively. Their VI are 126, 138, 136, and 130, respectively. The DDI package, typically about 20% of the oil, could have a Noack over 15%.
There is nothing that contradicts the 40% ester information from Dave from Red Line here. A 40/60 POE/PAO mix would result in a Noack around 9-10%. Base-oil VI also checks. Everything is checking perfectly.
Thank you again, buster, for the inside information.
Originally Posted by Gokhan
HTFS (base-oil + DDI-package viscosity at 150 °C) = 2.1 cSt, which is fairly typical for a 0W-20.
Correction: HTFS = 2.1cSt cP. It is the dynamic, not kinematic viscosity.
HTFS (base-oil + DDI-package viscosity at 150 °C) = 2.1 cSt, which is fairly typical for a 0W-20.
Correction: HTFS = 2.1
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Thank you Gokhan and Buster. Interesting topic here.