Is Royal purple worth the extra $$?

[rockydee]

Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: deven
I have known about this for a long time since it has been thrown around a lot when RP comes up. Thanks but no thanks. I will believe my 100+ dyno tests that show that it indeed does increase hp. You guys sit behind a computer and be the arm chair quarterback while I go out in the real world and produce results.


Ok, then what is the error range for you equipment? +/- what percentage? What is your control and how many samples do you take? Type-I false-positive much? You want to play arm-chair researcher, fine but don't say "produced results" without having the statistics to back it up. THAT is what turns off a lot of rational buyers off of those previous RP claims.


Its obvious you have made up your mind about RP and will never look at that oil objectively.
The company that we bought the Dyno sends a tech out once a year to calibrate and troubleshoot the device unless we need them to come out sooner to troubleshoot. That's all. No samples. Just put the car on dyno 4 times usually. Twice on the oil the car came with and twice on the oil we put in which is usually Royal Purple.


So 2 runs on the Dyno with spent dirty oil, and 2 runs with freshly changed RP? Sorry I'm not impressed. You were asked valid questions about your testing methods, they leave a lot to the imagination. Sorry!

PS I'll tell ya this, you'd do fine as a salesman for RP. There's lots of people that would buy into your testing methods and results. This board from what I've learned is a tough as nails bunch. Looks like you're learnin' that for yourself-RD

 

[Smokescreen]

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Ok, then what is the error range for you equipment? +/- what percentage? What is your control and how many samples do you take? Type-I false-positive much? You want to play arm-chair researcher, fine but don't say "produced results" without having the statistics to back it up. THAT is what turns off a lot of rational buyers off of those previous RP claims.
Its obvious you have made up your mind about RP and will never look at that oil objectively. The company that we bought the Dyno sends a tech out once a year to calibrate and troubleshoot the device unless we need them to come out sooner to troubleshoot. That's all. No samples. Just put the car on dyno 4 times usually. Twice on the oil the car came with and twice on the oil we put in which is usually Royal Purple.

Take the oil out of the equation. I am going to assume that most of the engines that you dyno make equal to or more than 400HP. You are saying the oil increases HP by 2-3. On a 400HP engine, (i. e. making 400HP on another brand of oil) a 3 HP increase is a 0.75% increase in HP. The question of how accurate your equipment is would definitely come into play since that is less than a 1% increase. IMHO, asking about the accuracy has nothing to do with the oil and if the specifications of your dyno are no more accurate than +/- 1%, then you cannot accurately say the oil is affecting the readings in any repeatable way (on a 400HP engine as an example).

 

[Dallas69]

Next

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Next


+1 This horse has been beaten to death.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Next


+1 This horse has been beaten to death.

Agreed.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Next


+1 This horse has been beaten to death.

Agreed.

 

[deven]

2006 Mustang GT (Top) M1 5w50
2007 Mustang GT (Middle) M1 5w50
2005 Mustang GT (Bottom) RP 5w20

Royal Purple Cams (70,000 Miles) No noticable wear I got a 50.52 on the edge and the center

I did the Same process on the Mobil 1 CAM, there was some wear but so little the Digital Micrometer would wobble between 50.51 and 50.52
Mobil 1 CAM (40,000 Miles)

From this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1688040/1
Will both Mobil 1 and Royal Purple protect well. Yes. But I see these results all the time with Royal Purple.
I am not starting a new war but this is just for the newer members to compare who may have not seen that epic thread! Enjoy.

 

[BillyTheKid]

The oil making HP is not accurate. Been there done that with a motorcycle dyno. The conditions will never be the same to produce a real amount of consistent data.

This is not a dig on RP, this is a dig on any claim brand x makes more HP than brand y within the same weight of oil.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: deven

2006 Mustang GT (Top) M1 5w50
2007 Mustang GT (Middle) M1 5w50
2005 Mustang GT (Bottom) RP 5w20

Royal Purple Cams (70,000 Miles) No noticable wear I got a 50.52 on the edge and the center

I did the Same process on the Mobil 1 CAM, there was some wear but so little the Digital Micrometer would wobble between 50.51 and 50.52
Mobil 1 CAM (40,000 Miles)

From this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1688040/1
Will both Mobil 1 and Royal Purple protect well. Yes. But I see these results all the time with Royal Purple.
I am not starting a new war but this is just for the newer members to compare who may have not seen that epic thread! Enjoy.



That was an epic thread however it's very hard to say anything with any certainty based on it.
Operating conditions aren't identical therefore no real conclusions can be made.
If you notice I post in that thread,and I'm not on the mobil side at all,but because testing methods weren't even close to being controlled nor consistent nothing of value can be determined.
Other than that royal purple IS a quality product. That we can be sure of regardless of many opinions saying it's not.

 

[aa1986]

This should be a sticky

Originally Posted By: THE LUBE REPORT (2009) Truth in Advertising: BP v. Royal Purple By George Gill

“Anecdotal evidence based solely on the experiences of individual consumers is insufficient to support product efficacy claims, including claims related to horsepower, torque, fuel economy or engine heat,” the organization stated. “While the advertiser may quote from published articles if it provides clear and conspicuous attribution to the publisher, it may not rely on such articles to support efficacy claims for which it has no reliable independent validation.”

 

[SteveSRT8]

Anyone with any time on the rollers knows that dynos vary considerably.

I have personally seen variance of over 5% same day same dyno, with NO changes at all! Just barometric pressure and temp!

Sorry to disappoint the fan boys but nothing conclusive has been presented yet. But this does not stop anyone from buying whatever oil they want...

 

[rockydee]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Anyone with any time on the rollers knows that dynos vary considerably.

I have personally seen variance of over 5% same day same dyno, with NO changes at all! Just barometric pressure and temp!

Sorry to disappoint the fan boys but nothing conclusive has been presented yet. But this does not stop anyone from buying whatever oil they want...

FTR the cam pictures as Clevy said are meaningless. Buy whatever oil you like, just don't think you're going to convince others around here to do the same, or that your oil is better than theirs.

-RD

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: deven
Its obvious you have made up your mind about RP and will never look at that oil objectively.


Actually, as I said before, I will definitely use RP IF the price is right. Sub/at $4 per quart and I will take home some bottles. Below/at $3 and I will clear it out. Despite the false claims of the company in the past and its fanboys, it is a decent oil... just nothing spectacular.

Originally Posted By: deven
The company that we bought the Dyno sends a tech out once a year to calibrate and troubleshoot the device unless we need them to come out sooner to troubleshoot. That's all. No samples. Just put the car on dyno 4 times usually. Twice on the oil the car came with and twice on the oil we put in which is usually Royal Purple.


So basically blind as to your testing approach. As folks have suggested dynos vary. If you have variation, then the number of samples becomes more important (especially when dealing with small % gains/losses). Two runs will give you nothing, If you are seeing +/- of anything near you testing objective (say +/1%) that could be 8bhp for a 400bhp machine. This does not account for other variables. Heck, if you are also calculating mechanical drag to determine power loss from the flywheel, then that is compounded error as well. As a result, you need to run a lot of samples before you can even come close to being able to say anything with any degree of confidence. You need to get to a normal curve which could be anything from 30 samples to over 100 (depending on the accuracy). Even then, you might not be able to reject the null and have inconclusive data.

I only look at oil objectively... (unless it is Havoline and my fanboy-ism kicks in). Show me the data and I make up my mind from that. 1, 2 or 4 data points is insufficient, especially if there is variation. Sure, 1, 2 or 4 data points can expose claims, but they can not prove claims.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: deven

2006 Mustang GT (Top) M1 5w50
2007 Mustang GT (Middle) M1 5w50
2005 Mustang GT (Bottom) RP 5w20

Royal Purple Cams (70,000 Miles) No noticable wear I got a 50.52 on the edge and the center

I did the Same process on the Mobil 1 CAM, there was some wear but so little the Digital Micrometer would wobble between 50.51 and 50.52
Mobil 1 CAM (40,000 Miles)

From this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1688040/1
Will both Mobil 1 and Royal Purple protect well. Yes. But I see these results all the time with Royal Purple.
I am not starting a new war but this is just for the newer members to compare who may have not seen that epic thread! Enjoy.



That was an epic thread however it's very hard to say anything with any certainty based on it.
Operating conditions aren't identical therefore no real conclusions can be made.
If you notice I post in that thread,and I'm not on the mobil side at all,but because testing methods weren't even close to being controlled nor consistent nothing of value can be determined.
Other than that royal purple IS a quality product. That we can be sure of regardless of many opinions saying it's not.


Yes, I remember that thread. I thought the RP cams looked better than the M1 cams, but also thought it was pointless to try to measure cam wear with a set of digital calipers. The amount of wear one would be trying to detect is much smaller than the resolution of the calipers. Based on the appearance of the lobe surfaces, I would have said that the M1 cams would eventually spall, and the RP ones wouldn't. "Eventually" meaning 250k+ miles.

 

[Al]

Using a dial caliper for exact bearing measurements is totally fubar. And reeks of incredibility

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^So glad someone else noticed also!

Sort of hurts the claimed benefits, eh?

 

[deven]

Wasnt going to reply to all the dyno comments but will just to clarify why we dyno the way we do.

First we have dyno'd using new oil and we would use the mfg recommended oil after we dyno'd the car with the oil it came in.
After a while we saw a pattern where therewas either no difference or the used oil produced very very minimal increase in hp, maybe since the oil had sheared a bit even though it was still in grade(verified by uoa) and/or maybe the anti wear additives were already activated by heat(complete speculation). So we decided that it was a waste of time, money, resources and wear and tear of equipment and stopped performing dyno on new oil.

As for variations in dyno results, sure its a valid point but in that case it would work both ways where a lot of times RP would be the benefactor of flawed results and we surely would not have a 90-92% success rate. After all it should be a 2 way road. The variances should hurt RP just as much. I know no one especially futuredoc wont believe in this argument but it is what it is.

I would love to perform your experiment futuredoc but we all know that it is not feasible nor financially reasonable to perform 30-100 dynos in a row. Not only would we put undue stress on the dyno but we would probably uncalibrate it and the results would become meaningless. We have to rest the dyno at least an hour after each run to get an optimum amount of equipment life.

Lastly if we performed that many runs my electricity bill would run me into the 5 digit category. I simply cannot afford to do that.

 

[rockydee]

Originally Posted By: deven
Wasnt going to reply to all the dyno comments but will just to clarify why we dyno the way we do.

First we have dyno'd using new oil and we would use the mfg recommended oil after we dyno'd the car with the oil it came in.
After a while we saw a pattern where therewas either no difference or the used oil produced very very minimal increase in hp, maybe since the oil had sheared a bit even though it was still in grade(verified by uoa) and/or maybe the anti wear additives were already activated by heat(complete speculation). So we decided that it was a waste of time, money, resources and wear and tear of equipment and stopped performing dyno on new oil.

As for variations in dyno results, sure its a valid point but in that case it would work both ways where a lot of times RP would be the benefactor of flawed results and we surely would not have a 90-92% success rate. After all it should be a 2 way road. The variances should hurt RP just as much. I know no one especially futuredoc wont believe in this argument but it is what it is.

I would love to perform your experiment futuredoc but we all know that it is not feasible nor financially reasonable to perform 30-100 dynos in a row. Not only would we put undue stress on the dyno but we would probably uncalibrate it and the results would become meaningless. We have to rest the dyno at least an hour after each run to get an optimum amount of equipment life.

Lastly if we performed that many runs my electricity bill would run me into the 5 digit category. I simply cannot afford to do that.


Statistical noise/error call it whatever you want. My bet is if you ran the same exact test leaving the car on the Dyno with a 5 minute rest period the results would be the same. Your testing proves nothing unfortunately. How many of us have to tell you that? But if RP is hiring sales reps you'd be someone worth their consideration. Good effort man!-RD

 

[rockydee]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^So glad someone else noticed also!

Sort of hurts the claimed benefits, eh?


I'd say: Ouch.-RD